Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Double Bass Thumb position for bow hold (French bow)
- Thread starter Enzo
- Start date
Bent. A straight thumb will wear out the joints in your thumb very quickly. It's hard to keep the thumb bent, and a few people just can't. Stick at it though. If you truly can't and your thumb starts to hurt, best plan is to switch to German bow.
Hi Enzo,
This is a copy of my earlier post in a thread topic originally started by Steve Boisen on 01 - 01 - 2004 and continued since by Skabasskid on 05 - 15 - 2011.
FRENCH BOW HOLD TENSION
Since adopting these ideas years ago I have not suffered tiredness or pain in my bow hold or arm despite a full-time job in an orchestra.
When your hands hang loosely by your side they are cupped, with fingers and thumb bent. You only have to move your bent thumb across until it opposes your second finger and keep your fingers slightly separated to have the basis for a very relaxed French Bow hold.
Two things are important to me. Thumb opposes second finger and is bent, and little finger is bent. These keep your hand cupped, muscles in your thumb and heel of hand relaxed, and wrist free to rotate in any direction.
Try these tests for wrist freedom. (1) Press your index finger against your thumb and rotate your hand in all directions around your wrist - feel the tension and clicks in your wrist (2) repeat between little finger and wrist - worse tension (3) Now press between second finger and thumb _ tension disappears and wrist is free to rotate in any direction. You can press as hard as you like and the wrist is still free to move.
Try these tests for muscle relaxation. Keep your thumb and opposing fingers straight and push them together by bending the big knuckles together - your hand forms "Kermit the Frog" shape. Feel your big thumb muscle - it will be rock hard, so to will the heel muscles (like a karate chop). Now again cup your hand and oppose the second finger with the thumb (as in bowing) and test the muscles again - the muscles are now soft and flexible.
I see the French bow hold as a balancing act between leverage (how far ahead of the thumb the index finger advances) and comfort. If you strike the right sort of balance there is no need for muscle to tense and tire, giving that "red hot golf ball" pain in the big thumb muscles. You will have plenty of leverage for all but the heaviest of plying, when you can temporarily change anyway. Spread your fingers too far and your hand stiffens. Don't advance your index finger far enough and you work like a dog, causing your hand to stiffen! I like natural spacing between fingers, just as they are when your hand hangs loosely by your side.
I drop the above hand shape over the stick, looking for the front edge of the ferrule with my second finger and the front corner of the frog with the end of my thumb. Then my thumb opposes my second finger in the bow hold!! Also it won't slip off the corner. I could put my thumb in the corner between the end of the frog and the stick but pain is caused when flesh is trapped between nail and stick.
The thumb is the fulcrum around which the bow will rotate if it wasn't supported by the strings. I think of the first finger and thumb being a hook that transfers the weight of my arm to the string. If I turn in my arm carefully by rotating the right elbow (a hinge joint that only works in one direction) up and out slightly my elbow is free to move in the same direction as the bow and there is no conflict between weight and freedom of movement.
The fingers will point back slightly and the back of the hand is higher than the index finger (and the last pad of the little finger) is just hooked over the stick (not straight!!!) The hand is still cupped and thumb bent but turning the hand in has thrown weight forward into the string without distorting anything. Most of the bending of fingers is with the second line of knuckles to avoid "Kermit The Frog." The hand, side on, looks more like a snake's head.
Looking down your bow arm you should see a line of power going undisturbed from your shoulder to your index finger through a fairly straight wrist that shouldn't have to pronate too much. Play with a "long arm." (I too am short at 5' 7")
I use the above "package" of bow hold and arm set-up to connect my brain to the strings with as few "road blocks" as possible. Via Tom Martin the ideas come originally from a must-have still available book by William Pleeth, famous English Cello teacher, called "Cello" ( a paperback commissioned years ago by Yehudi Menuhin )"
Enzo, fingers and thumb bent with hand cupped will always be more natural and relaxed than fingers and thumb straight!
Best wishes,
DP
This is a copy of my earlier post in a thread topic originally started by Steve Boisen on 01 - 01 - 2004 and continued since by Skabasskid on 05 - 15 - 2011.
FRENCH BOW HOLD TENSION
Since adopting these ideas years ago I have not suffered tiredness or pain in my bow hold or arm despite a full-time job in an orchestra.
When your hands hang loosely by your side they are cupped, with fingers and thumb bent. You only have to move your bent thumb across until it opposes your second finger and keep your fingers slightly separated to have the basis for a very relaxed French Bow hold.
Two things are important to me. Thumb opposes second finger and is bent, and little finger is bent. These keep your hand cupped, muscles in your thumb and heel of hand relaxed, and wrist free to rotate in any direction.
Try these tests for wrist freedom. (1) Press your index finger against your thumb and rotate your hand in all directions around your wrist - feel the tension and clicks in your wrist (2) repeat between little finger and wrist - worse tension (3) Now press between second finger and thumb _ tension disappears and wrist is free to rotate in any direction. You can press as hard as you like and the wrist is still free to move.
Try these tests for muscle relaxation. Keep your thumb and opposing fingers straight and push them together by bending the big knuckles together - your hand forms "Kermit the Frog" shape. Feel your big thumb muscle - it will be rock hard, so to will the heel muscles (like a karate chop). Now again cup your hand and oppose the second finger with the thumb (as in bowing) and test the muscles again - the muscles are now soft and flexible.
I see the French bow hold as a balancing act between leverage (how far ahead of the thumb the index finger advances) and comfort. If you strike the right sort of balance there is no need for muscle to tense and tire, giving that "red hot golf ball" pain in the big thumb muscles. You will have plenty of leverage for all but the heaviest of plying, when you can temporarily change anyway. Spread your fingers too far and your hand stiffens. Don't advance your index finger far enough and you work like a dog, causing your hand to stiffen! I like natural spacing between fingers, just as they are when your hand hangs loosely by your side.
I drop the above hand shape over the stick, looking for the front edge of the ferrule with my second finger and the front corner of the frog with the end of my thumb. Then my thumb opposes my second finger in the bow hold!! Also it won't slip off the corner. I could put my thumb in the corner between the end of the frog and the stick but pain is caused when flesh is trapped between nail and stick.
The thumb is the fulcrum around which the bow will rotate if it wasn't supported by the strings. I think of the first finger and thumb being a hook that transfers the weight of my arm to the string. If I turn in my arm carefully by rotating the right elbow (a hinge joint that only works in one direction) up and out slightly my elbow is free to move in the same direction as the bow and there is no conflict between weight and freedom of movement.
The fingers will point back slightly and the back of the hand is higher than the index finger (and the last pad of the little finger) is just hooked over the stick (not straight!!!) The hand is still cupped and thumb bent but turning the hand in has thrown weight forward into the string without distorting anything. Most of the bending of fingers is with the second line of knuckles to avoid "Kermit The Frog." The hand, side on, looks more like a snake's head.
Looking down your bow arm you should see a line of power going undisturbed from your shoulder to your index finger through a fairly straight wrist that shouldn't have to pronate too much. Play with a "long arm." (I too am short at 5' 7")
I use the above "package" of bow hold and arm set-up to connect my brain to the strings with as few "road blocks" as possible. Via Tom Martin the ideas come originally from a must-have still available book by William Pleeth, famous English Cello teacher, called "Cello" ( a paperback commissioned years ago by Yehudi Menuhin )"
Enzo, fingers and thumb bent with hand cupped will always be more natural and relaxed than fingers and thumb straight!
Best wishes,
DP
Enzo, in my previous life I was an industrial chemist for seven years, first with the sugar industry and then with building materials (both CSR Co. Ltd). Music went from late-start hobby (aged 23) to a passion. I jumped ship aged 26 for full-time music and have never regretted it.
Best wishes,
DP
Best wishes,
DP
I have found that if I put my 3rd finger on the silver ferrule, I use my thumb more comfortably and effectively. The force I exert with it is more in line with the thumbs natural range of motion and therefore stronger. I put my thumb where the frog meets the stick.
This also puts both the 1st and 2nd finger in front of your thumb, or fulcrum as it were. I find I have more control over the both now, especially things like the hair contact patch on the strings - its much more consistent at the tip, and as a result much less scratches on the string.
Just a tip to consider.
This also puts both the 1st and 2nd finger in front of your thumb, or fulcrum as it were. I find I have more control over the both now, especially things like the hair contact patch on the strings - its much more consistent at the tip, and as a result much less scratches on the string.
Just a tip to consider.
We all can have different shaped hands with different lengths of fingers and thumb. I don't entirely disagree with the last post. Any advance of the index finger ahead of the thumb will affect power (leverage) but look for the balance that keeps the fingers, thumb and wrist flexible and avoids the large thumb muscles over tightening. With the bow pointing at the ceiling try different bow holds, testing the base of the thumb and the heel (pinkie side) of your hand for tension and locking up. Also try rotating your wrist.
Knut Guettler advocates the first two fingers forward of the thumb (fulcrum) for extra power and made that work well for him. He presses the second finger into the side of the index finger.Just as there appear to be many approaches to holding the German bow there are "more ways to skin a cat" here.
The music we play requires versatility with the bow use. The bow hold can (and, in my opinion, should) vary according to circumstances. Different when bowing off the string (spiccato) to hard on the string but always flexible and sensitive to the strings (springs) that the bow moves over.
Lots of experimenting!
DP
Knut Guettler advocates the first two fingers forward of the thumb (fulcrum) for extra power and made that work well for him. He presses the second finger into the side of the index finger.Just as there appear to be many approaches to holding the German bow there are "more ways to skin a cat" here.
The music we play requires versatility with the bow use. The bow hold can (and, in my opinion, should) vary according to circumstances. Different when bowing off the string (spiccato) to hard on the string but always flexible and sensitive to the strings (springs) that the bow moves over.
Lots of experimenting!
DP
