I spend an awful lot of time practicing the Bach cello suites and have put up with a major muscle knot and pain just inside my left shoulder blade for a long time now. I assume that I should be letting the weight of my arm do more of the work, but I'm having trouble conceptualizing how to disengage those back muscles in high thumb position. Any suggestions? Should I rest my forearm on the shoulder of the bass and bend my wrist more?
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Double Bass Thumb position "shoulder blade" pain
- Thread starter Don Harris
- Start date
Brave man, is this on your Jakstadt? I have had pain there from hunching my back or raising my left shoulder.
If that sounds like you, here is what worked for me:
Stand with feet between shoulder and hip width apart.
Hold the bass straight up and down an arms length in front of you. Adjust the endpin so that the heel of your hand can rest on the heel of the bass (you would be playing C and D on the G string in this area) often the bass is too high or too low.
Turn the bass very slightly and pull it back to your body. Resist the temptation to lean forward over the bass. I usually shoot for the corner of the bass to rest between where my leg and my torso come together. This sets you up for the next step.
As you ascend into thumb position, rotate forwards from where your legs come into your torso, moving your whole torso to give you extra length in your arms. Try to have your body stand tall over your bass, but let it be tall, don't try to overextend yourself.
Stop looking at your hands, let your head balance on your neck. Remember that thing weighs as much or more than a bowling ball and can add to neck strain, especially when you are staring at your hands.
Keep monitoring your body for problem areas. I was so bad at this I had to just pick up my bass and not react to it, I would just tense up as soon as I brought the bass towards me.
Pay attention to your alignment, watch out for where you start to rotate your torso or hold yourself too tight.
Also, maybe you are working too hard with the bow, this will add to your tension. Is your bow close enough to the bridge?
Good luck!
If that sounds like you, here is what worked for me:
Stand with feet between shoulder and hip width apart.
Hold the bass straight up and down an arms length in front of you. Adjust the endpin so that the heel of your hand can rest on the heel of the bass (you would be playing C and D on the G string in this area) often the bass is too high or too low.
Turn the bass very slightly and pull it back to your body. Resist the temptation to lean forward over the bass. I usually shoot for the corner of the bass to rest between where my leg and my torso come together. This sets you up for the next step.
As you ascend into thumb position, rotate forwards from where your legs come into your torso, moving your whole torso to give you extra length in your arms. Try to have your body stand tall over your bass, but let it be tall, don't try to overextend yourself.
Stop looking at your hands, let your head balance on your neck. Remember that thing weighs as much or more than a bowling ball and can add to neck strain, especially when you are staring at your hands.
Keep monitoring your body for problem areas. I was so bad at this I had to just pick up my bass and not react to it, I would just tense up as soon as I brought the bass towards me.
Pay attention to your alignment, watch out for where you start to rotate your torso or hold yourself too tight.
Also, maybe you are working too hard with the bow, this will add to your tension. Is your bow close enough to the bridge?
Good luck!
My guess is that you are raising your left shoulder. Tensing up your shoulders can cause tension near your shoulder blades.
Thanks Alex. Practicing Bach on the Jakstadt was brutal, but now I'm playing on the Pallotta copy I built. Much more manageable. I've had a tendency to hunch over the bass because it sounds fuller with my head leaning in, and when I straighten my back I feel like I'm not as "into" the music. I'm working on correcting that. I've been sitting cello style on a low stool and trying to stay loose and relaxed. I kind of feel like the posture thing and the knot between my shoulder blades are two separate things, but of course I could be wrong. I can relate to your comment about tensing as you pick up your bass. My shoulder blade knot has started tingling when I pick up my bass.
I'll check out the shoulder raising thing Cory...
I'll check out the shoulder raising thing Cory...
Alex already gave a great reply, but I thought I might just add a little-
Practicing facing a corner is a great way to hear yourself better, and if you set up a mirror there, you can see every nuance of posture.
best,
Laurence
Practicing facing a corner is a great way to hear yourself better, and if you set up a mirror there, you can see every nuance of posture.
best,
Laurence
practicing in front of a mirror is always great. I try to practice with a mirror all the time.
I myself am getting over some nerve problems in my right shoulder blade, so I know how annoying shoulder pain can be. If you think the pain is just being caused by a knot or tight muscles, then I would suggest finding a good massage therapist and seeing him/her twice a month at least. There are some orchestras (Cleveland that I know of) that will actually pay for massage as a medical/professional expense. If you land a job that covers massage, then you've hit the jackpot. It's a great way to relieve tension and stress and will help you keep limber when playing.
I myself am getting over some nerve problems in my right shoulder blade, so I know how annoying shoulder pain can be. If you think the pain is just being caused by a knot or tight muscles, then I would suggest finding a good massage therapist and seeing him/her twice a month at least. There are some orchestras (Cleveland that I know of) that will actually pay for massage as a medical/professional expense. If you land a job that covers massage, then you've hit the jackpot. It's a great way to relieve tension and stress and will help you keep limber when playing.
Alexander Technique can really help with the right teacher as well. I also got a book by Barbara Conable, [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
But check out that left shoulder and the head down thing too.
There were also some good articles in the isb magazine with pictures of how to hold the bass.
Since you mentioned the stool thing, I would also add sitting to the front of the stool and sitting on your sits bones, avoiding rounding of the small of your back. That can lead to the kind of slouching that raises your shoulder.
I like to feel able to leap up off of the stool for that kind of upward mobility.
But check out that left shoulder and the head down thing too.
There were also some good articles in the isb magazine with pictures of how to hold the bass.
Since you mentioned the stool thing, I would also add sitting to the front of the stool and sitting on your sits bones, avoiding rounding of the small of your back. That can lead to the kind of slouching that raises your shoulder.
I like to feel able to leap up off of the stool for that kind of upward mobility.
I've actually got that book (Barbara Conable) somewhere. I need to dig it out. Thanks for all the good suggestions. I'm trying to be very aware while practicing now and find that I continually need to drop my shoulder and not round my lower back. I'm also jutting my neck forward. I was able to practice much longer today than usual by correcting some of this stuff, but old habits die hard.
That's what the Alexander Technique would help you do: not be a slave to your habits. Check it out.
I currently have the exact same thing when i went from standing to sitting.
My problem is that i move the shoulder away from the rest of the body.
Instead i practice moving the whole body in combination with a straightening in the elbow joint.
I try to get into this only by scales in different intervals and very very often moving back
the arm and let it down the body to see how the shoulder posture want to be when relaxed.
Today i think i sat two hours just slowly moving from first to second E on the G string, haha.
I feel like it's going to be my summer mission to get the perfect left hand posture!
My problem is that i move the shoulder away from the rest of the body.
Instead i practice moving the whole body in combination with a straightening in the elbow joint.
I try to get into this only by scales in different intervals and very very often moving back
the arm and let it down the body to see how the shoulder posture want to be when relaxed.
Today i think i sat two hours just slowly moving from first to second E on the G string, haha.
I feel like it's going to be my summer mission to get the perfect left hand posture!
You can perform self massage in that area by placing a tennis ball against a wall and lean into it with the area that is uncomfortable. The muscles you describe, between shoulder blades, are responsible for holding the scapula in place and pulling the shoulder back. When you reach forward in thumb position try to keep your spine straight and don't let your shoulders round so much. Strengthening exercises for these muscles is important - seated rows or other pulling exercises can help do the trick
A tube sock with a lacrosse ball in it has worked great for me. It's a little harder than a tennis ball and easier to zero in on a spot, plus the sock makes it easier to hang the ball where you need it. Beside my head forward and slumping problems, I think I narrowed down the issue to an inefficient vibrato in half position on the G string that's aggravating my shoulder blade area. I'm working on it and it's much better, but old habits die hard.
Great advice, powerbass. While I was doing some dumbbell work the problem almost entirely went away.
Great advice, powerbass. While I was doing some dumbbell work the problem almost entirely went away.
What kind of dumbbell work did you do Don. I have the same problem for over more than a year. SLowly gettin' better, but I am interesyed in the excersizes you do.
Here's a link with a bunch of dumbbell exercises to make it easier to name them for you: http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/dumbbellexercises.html
I did shoulder presses, lateral raises, front raises, single arm rows and shrugs. These are the ones that I think directly helped my issues. This is inspiring me to get back to it!
I did shoulder presses, lateral raises, front raises, single arm rows and shrugs. These are the ones that I think directly helped my issues. This is inspiring me to get back to it!
Don Higdon might agree with this one?
There is a stretch called Cat and Dog that helps mobilise that area of your back. As string players we tend to stabilise our shoulders from that area for long periods of time.
Kneel on your hands and knees with thighs and arms vertical. Rock forward over your hands (or knuckles) dropping your bottom, arching your head back and up and letting your chest sag between your shoulders (Dog). Hold for 15-20 seconds then go into Cat. Come back up and over, arching your back and dropping your head right down (the o. pposite end of the range of movement). Again hold for 15-20 seconds. Repeat the cycle a few times.
I have an exercise without dumbells that I find good and may help your shoulders. Stand normally and extend your arms out straight sideways at shoulder height. Clench your fingers but leave your thumbs sticking straight out as an extension of your arms. Rotate your arms forward in your shoulders so that your thumbs are closest to the floor. Now start to make smallish circles with your arms by lifting and rotating forward and down, starting with say 30 reps and building up gradually to say 60 reps.
Then rotate your arms in your shoulders the other way until your thumbs are uppermost and make circles by lifting and rotating forward and up (the opposite direction) with the same number of reps.
There is another standard stretch for your shoulder blade area. Bend your elbow at 90 degrees and raise your arm to shoulder height. Move your arm across your front towards your right. Hook your right wrist under your left elbow and draw it in towards your chest. Feel the shoulder blade area being stretched and hold for 15-20 seconds.
There are other basic stretches that string players should be doing, both before and after playing.
Posture is also very important, particularly shoulder alignment.
Cheers.....DP
There is a stretch called Cat and Dog that helps mobilise that area of your back. As string players we tend to stabilise our shoulders from that area for long periods of time.
Kneel on your hands and knees with thighs and arms vertical. Rock forward over your hands (or knuckles) dropping your bottom, arching your head back and up and letting your chest sag between your shoulders (Dog). Hold for 15-20 seconds then go into Cat. Come back up and over, arching your back and dropping your head right down (the o. pposite end of the range of movement). Again hold for 15-20 seconds. Repeat the cycle a few times.
I have an exercise without dumbells that I find good and may help your shoulders. Stand normally and extend your arms out straight sideways at shoulder height. Clench your fingers but leave your thumbs sticking straight out as an extension of your arms. Rotate your arms forward in your shoulders so that your thumbs are closest to the floor. Now start to make smallish circles with your arms by lifting and rotating forward and down, starting with say 30 reps and building up gradually to say 60 reps.
Then rotate your arms in your shoulders the other way until your thumbs are uppermost and make circles by lifting and rotating forward and up (the opposite direction) with the same number of reps.
There is another standard stretch for your shoulder blade area. Bend your elbow at 90 degrees and raise your arm to shoulder height. Move your arm across your front towards your right. Hook your right wrist under your left elbow and draw it in towards your chest. Feel the shoulder blade area being stretched and hold for 15-20 seconds.
There are other basic stretches that string players should be doing, both before and after playing.
Posture is also very important, particularly shoulder alignment.
Cheers.....DP
I am having a problem similar to this and though I may not be currently experiencing pain, I fear that it will lead to pain in the future. When I play the Bourèe 1 of Bach's cello suite on double bass, I go into thumb position playing 3rd octave F# on G-string with index finger to a B on the D string with my thumb. With the amount of pressure needed to produce a good sound, it seems almost impossible to play thumb positions like these without raising my left shoulder to balance the bass and keep it from falling over. I am currently experimenting with different endpin heights but any advice would be helpful!
