Double Bass Time for a new pickup..Krivo?

[Whit Townsend]

I've used my old BP100 since around 1993. This is the 2nd bass its been on. On this bass I have it superglued to the bridge, and go thru a PADI as a preamp, usually to the PA as my amps arnt upright amps(SWR WM12 & old 50w Bassman head/1-15 cab). It works ok but its finicky. Works best to PA but I can make the SWR sound half ass with some careful tweaking. Hanv't even tried the Bassman.

I'm in an alt country outfit right now thats gonna be playing out real soon. Not a super loud group, but theres a drummer(a first for me) and electric guitar. The music ranges for pure country twang to some rockabilly and punk type things. Our PA is minimal and I'm afraid its not gonna suffice for much more than vocs and acoustic guitar in a live situation, so I'm pretty sure I'm gonna need a stage amp. The gigs will mostly small rooms 100-200 max. Anything bigger we play will most likely supply a house system.

I've just about decided on a Krivo for the following reasons.
1. I can keep the existing bridge and BP100, and maybe get a preamp from Gollier to blend and dial a little piezo tone back in if desired. Or possibly send the BP100/Padi to the PA for just a little reinforcement, and the mag to the amp for my main sound.
2. Pure tone aint the main goal. I want a good solid sound obviously, but a pure upright tone is secondary to ease of dialing in a usable sound. The leader prefers me to play the upright more for the looks and cool factor than the actual sound of it, or else Id just use a Pbass and flats and the old Bassman.
3. I always thought that when I upgraded I'd go with a Full Circle, but that would require a bridge re-work and a trip to the luthier. I can install the Krivo myself.
4. I cant really afford a new pickup and a $1000 upright amp too. I guess someday I could always get the Full Circle and a nice EA rig but not now.

I use Superflexable strings so I'm pretty sure I'm ok there with the Krivo.
I also still have my old BP100 preamp, but find that the PADI sounds better once I got it dialed in.
Think I could make the Krivo work with the SWR or the Bassman?
Is there another pickup system that would work as well or better thru one of these slab guitar amps?
The SWR has some pretty good eq, a 12, and a tweater, direct out, active and passive inputs, so its almost there as an upright amp but not really all the way there. The old Bassman rig is obviously is more limited, but sounds wonderful for this music with a Pbass and flatwounds.

Also I just noticed that the Schaller has a vol knob. That would be really handy. But this is old school and I'm sure the Krivo would sound better. But the Schaller might actually work just as well, and cheaper. Is the old Schaller noisier and hard to ground, or is it designed to not need grounding like the Krivo?

Maybe Bob G will chime in and help a fellow out!

 

[Ric Vice]

I've used my old BP100 since around 1993. This is the 2nd bass it’s been on. On this bass I have it super-glued to the bridge, and go thru a PADI as a preamp, usually to the PA as my amps aren’t upright amps(SWR WM12 & old 50w Bassman head/1-15 cab). It works ok but its finicky. Works best to PA but I can make the SWR sound half ass with some careful tweaking. Haven't even tried the Bassman.

Whit,
Lot’s of DB players used the Workingman’s 12 very successfully with Double Bass.So I’d go with that amp when you’re playing upright. It was built with that in mind. As I recall, it has a DI, so that’s the way I’d go. The Fishman BP-100 can work, but it’s definitely the week link in your chain. Later on, when you can afford it, you should look at something else. To get a decent sound from the BP-100 you need to have it loaded at 10 meg ohms. If the your L.R.R. Baggs Para Acoustic DI does that, then you're set. I would assume that's what it loads at. Otherwise you'll need a buffer preamp. The least expensive HPF Buffer Pre Amp from FDeck could really help with your sound.

I'm in an alt country outfit right now that’s gonna be playing out real soon. Not a super loud group, but there’s a drummer(a first for me) and electric guitar. The music ranges for pure country twang to some rockabilly and punk type things. Our PA is minimal and I'm afraid its not gonna suffice for much more than vocals and acoustic guitar in a live situation, so I'm pretty sure I'm gonna need a stage amp.

Well, you have the Workingmans’ 12, the Baggs Para Acoustic DI, and the Fishman, so that will do for the present. At some point, I’d try to score a used Underwood Pickup, and ditch the BP-100. The Krivo will work. if you have to get really loud, but it won’t give you the attack or “thump” that a piezo pickup does. That sound is the heartbeat of the band.

I've just about decided on a Krivo for the following reasons.

1.I can keep the existing bridge and BP100, and maybe get a preamp from Gollihur to blend and dial a little piezo tone back in if desired.

Certianly, a good option There are lots of them out there now, I use a Headway EDB-2 but there’s also the Basswitch, Acoustic Box Live, etc. you can look at them here
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2. Pure tone ain’t the main goal. I want a good solid sound obviously, but a pure upright tone is secondary to ease of dialing in a usable sound. The leader prefers me to play the upright more for the looks and cool factor than the actual sound of it, or else Id just use a Pbass and flats and the old Bassman.

I really, don’t think “a good solid sound” and a “useable sound” are mutually exclusive, both those qualities are necessary to get a Double Bass sound. It’s unfortunate that your leader thinks the DB is a cosmetic upgrade like a new lamp.

3. I always thought that when I upgraded I'd go with a Full Circle, but that would require a bridge re-work and a trip to the luthier. I can install the Krivo myself.

If you have adjusters you might want to demo the new Realist Life Line. It doesn’t require the services of a luthier to install it, and has more edge than the older Realist that fit’s under the bridge. That may be something you want to think about for later on.

The Krivo will certainly go louder than the BP-100, but you’re going to sacrifice the characteristic attack, sustain, and decay of each note that a Double Basses produces. Magnetic Pickups sustain far longer, that makes them easier to hear, but they don’t have the same punch.

4. I cant really afford a new pickup and a $1000 upright amp too. I guess someday I could always get the Full Circle and a nice EA rig but not now.

I think that the only thing that needs swapping out is your pickup, for the price of the Krivo, there are a few other options.

Think I could make the Krivo work with the SWR or the Bassman?

You can make anything work, I used a Tonnenges Four Element Magnetic pickup, when my only other choices were the Polytone or Barcus Berry silver bar. But once the Underwood came out, I moved to it right away.

Ric

 

[Whit Townsend]

Thanks Ric. To address a few of your comments
Not trying to slag the leader. We all love the look vs a slab. I can make a slab work easily and it would actually be better for about 25% of the material. But I understand completely what you are saying re the thump and feel. It's just the age old prob of piezos and volume.
The SWR had a DI out but the ins are 1/4.
No adjs on this bridge.
I plan on making do with the BP100 &SWR for now but have heard good things re the Kivo.

 

[Sam Reese]

I'd like to know how the Krivo does in loud stage environments. How does it respond to very hard playing? The K&K Bass Max will distort under the hardest playing conditions. I'm thinking about getting a Krivo and blending with the Bass Max thru my EA Doubler -or- possibly thru my K&K 2-channel preamp that I never use.

 

[Ric Vice]

Thanks Ric. To address a few of your comments
Not trying to slag the leader. We all love the look vs a slab. I can make a slab work easily and it would actually be better for about 25% of the material. But I understand completely what you are saying re the thump and feel. It's just the age old prob of piezos and volume.
The SWR had a DI out but the ins are 1/4.
No adjs on this bridge.
I plan on making do with the BP100 &SWR for now but have heard good things re the Kivo.

Whit,
I checked with L.R.R. Baggs about the Para Acoustic DI. It loads at 10 Meg Ohms. So, for the BP-100, it's is a good match. You'll want to use the Baggs Para Acoustic, into the front end of the SWR, so that it puts the input impedance at 10 Meg Ohms, rather than the 1 Meg Ohm input impedance, of the Workman's 12. If you went into the effects loop the input impedance isn't effected, by the Baggs Para Acoustic DI. Just thought you might be going in through the effects so you can run both instruments.

Ric

 

[Whit Townsend]

Yes Ric I find the PADI works much better than the old BP100 pre. Have always went into the front inputs. I can't really tell if it makes much diff going into the normal input or the active input but usually use the active one. That theoretically should be the one to use right?

 

[Ric Vice]

Yes Ric I find the PADI works much better than the old BP100 pre. Have always went into the front inputs. I can't really tell if it makes much diff going into the normal input or the active input but usually use the active one. That theoretically should be the one to use right?

Whit,
Well, it shouldn't make any difference actually, because the Baggs Para Acoustic DI is raising the input impedance to 10 Meg Ohms. Since the Baggs is a pre amp, I'd tend to use the active input to avoid distorting the Workingman's front end.

Ric

 

[Whit Townsend]

Whit,
Well, it shouldn't make any difference actually, because the Baggs Para Acoustic DI is raising the input impedance to 10 Meg Ohms. Since the Baggs is a pre amp, I'd tend to use the active input to avoid distorting the Workingman's front end.

Ric

Thanks, that has been my reasoning as well. I'm prob gonna wait and play one gig with the BP100>Baggs>SWR and see how it goes.
In my experience in rehearsal that combo is fine at lower volumes, but if things get loud and the gain on the SWR gets cranked to about 5, half-way or more, then things tend to get weird. Honky, or boomy, uneven string response, or feedback, or some combination of all of that. Its not as bad into a good PA. I've actually had pretty good luck with the BP100 all these yrs doing that. I have never liked it as reccommended with the clips on the bridge. Ive found its much better either clipped to the treble f hole, or on this bass I experimented and settled on glued to the tailpeice side of the bridge, down about 1/2 from the top, between the E&A and D&G.
But I've been playing bluegrass, 1/2 the time just using a mic. This is my first band playing with elec guitar and drums.

 

[Bob Gollihur]

I'd like to know how the Krivo does in loud stage environments. How does it respond to very hard playing? The K&K Bass Max will distort under the hardest playing conditions. I'm thinking about getting a Krivo and blending with the Bass Max thru my EA Doubler -or- possibly thru my K&K 2-channel preamp that I never use.

FYI it is probably not the Bass Max that is causing distortion under louder play. More likely the signal from the Bass Max (and similar pickups) is overwhelming the preamp in your amp and/or the outboard unit in use. Piezos can generate a very hot signal (mostly noticeable on lower notes? that's what's happening) and overdrive a preamp, so turn the preamp level down and/or use the active preamp jack, and compensate with the master volume.

 

[SVT4001]

I use a K and K Bassmax with an SWR combo in my country band, sounds great!

Joe

 

[Sam Reese]

Thanks Bob. I think you hit the nail on the head. Hot preamp settings on Fishman Plat. DI -and- preamp settings on GK MB212 (at this particular gig) were high and master volume lower...will make some changes in gain structure and see if I clean it up...also, sorry for slight hijack of thread. I am interested in the Krivo also!

 

[Bob Gollihur]

The Krivo is a great mag pickup, we've been really happy with it. The Schaller can also do a great job, but it does have the potential complication of hum since it's a single coil pickup. Your stage environment can determine whether it is a problem, and I frankly was surprised about how little hum most people experience... but then there are also plenty out there playing single coil slabs without a significant issue with 60 cycle hum on stage. The volume control and lower price can be factors worth considering.

 

[Whit Townsend]

Thanks Bob!
Is grounding the Schaller much of an issue?

 

[Sam Reese]

It looks like the Krivo might have superior RFI/EMI defense compared to the single coil Schaller. This matters if you are at a radio broadcast facility, etc. (I am)...just a little additional heads up.

 

[Bob Gollihur]

Thanks Bob!
Is grounding the Schaller much of an issue?

I never did when using it, and it doesn't seem to be an issue as it isn't recommended -- though as I think about it, running a wire to the tailpiece and across the string balls could be an interesting experiment.

 

[Whit Townsend]

Ok thanks Bob. I'll most likely be putting in an order for something soon.

 

[SprocketBass22]

I concur fully with what RiceVice posted.
I play in an alt-country five-piece as well and recently go a Krivo through Bob Golihur to augment my K & K Bassmax.
I played just the other night in an 800-seat venue and the Krivo nailed it played through my Headway per-amp with about 80% Krivo and 20% Bassmax (direct out of the pre-amp and an Eden 4 x 10 with Genz Benz Shuttle 6 for stage sound; NONE through the house monitors).
Krivo sounds great, with much less piezo quack, and a well rounded tone with my Spirocore strings. My Speyer bass has a lot of mid-range honk, so not really an easy getting as much thump as I need.
Would be totally comfortable running with just the Krivo too.
To sum up, IMHO a GREAT product and if I get another bass (Eminence four-string I'm looking at) I might just have to get another Krivo for that one!!!!

 

[Whit Townsend]

Well I just bit the bullet and ordered a Krivo. Gonna try it alone first, but most likely will order some kind of 2 ch pre to blend with the BP100 in the future. Bob reccomends the Radial PZ 2ch as an equal or better pre than the PADI. Really pricey tho. I may bite the bullet for that in the future, or try the K&K Dual channel Pro for less than 1/2 the price.
But for now at least I have an alternative. Krivo to stage amp and/or BP100-PADI to the house.
I can't wait to try the Krivo into my old Bassman head and 1-15 cab and turn it really loud and see what happens! If I really like the result, I have a passive Morley A/B box I could plug my BG and upright into and double on the old Bassman. Like I said before the Bassman is perfect for what we do with a BG and flats, plenty loud and a great tone.

Since my SWR combo has an active and a passive input, I wonder if I could just plug both pickups into it? Would that endanger the amp using both inputs at once? I realize there would be no blend function, but perhaps a pleasing eq setting could be found?

Anyway I'm excited to get another sound for my upright. Just mulling over how I may experiment for the time being while I save up for a 2ch preamp.

 

[Whit Townsend]

Got another question for you gurus.
I have a couple of small mixers.
One is an old Radio Shack 4ch DJ mixer I picked up for free, never used it. Its active w/a power supply. Just 4 sliders and 2 vu meters. I think you can use it mono if you go out of one side or the other. I dont recall it having any kind of tone stack.
The other is a little Peavey 4ch PV6 that I used with my powered Mackies until I bought a 12 channel one.

Can't hurt to try these as a preamp to blend pickups and also as a switcher between upright and BG right? I'm sure it would be fine with the piezo>PADI, not sure what it might do to the magnetic pickup signal tho. Also not sure about having 2 preamps in a row, PADI and the mixer, in line in front of my amp. Guess I might have to be very careful with the gain structure or risk frying the preamp on my amp?

If either of these work, I could make myself a little pedal board/gig bag using stuff I already own.

 

[Ric Vice]

Got another question for you gurus.
I have a couple of small mixers.
One is an old Radio Shack 4ch DJ ...........


The other is a little Peavey 4ch PV6 that I used with my powered Mackies until I bought a 12 channel one.

Can't hurt to try these as a preamp to blend pickups and also as a switcher between upright and BG right? I'm sure it would be fine with the piezo>PADI, not sure what it might do to the magnetic pickup signal tho. Also not sure about having 2 preamps in a row, PADI and the mixer, in line in front of my amp. Guess I might have to be very careful with the gain structure or risk frying the preamp on my amp?

It certainly can work, with a couple of tweaks.

First you'll need to know the input impedance of the mixer.
Some mixers have variable input impedance, but that's probably not the case with the Radio Shack or the Peavy. You may need a piezo pre amp in the signal chain before the mixer. Other wise it may sound pretty thin.

Secondly the EQ section of the mixers may not be voiced well for DB, you'll just have to try it.

Third, I'd try the mixer directly into your amp's effect's return to see how it sounds when you bypass the EQ section. That's one way to avoid having two gain stages before you hit the power amplifier. Good Luck


Ric