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Double Bass Tips for holding the tempo?

D

DILYSI Dave

Jan 26, 2013
42
1
#1
In the past I've played in bands with percussion, so I've typically not been the one responsible for setting the tempo. Now in a string band, folks are looking to me. The catch is that our mandolin player has a tendency to drag and my brain keeps hearing the mandolin chop as a snare drum and follows him right down.

So, any tips for holding the tempo? Any tips for dragging a slow tune back up to speed? On the occasion that I do feel the drag I'll try to play slightly ahead of the beat to speed things back up, but that's only sort of effective sometimes.
 
#2
Tempo needs to be a shared responsibility with EVERYONE! If the mando player drags it's better talk about it as a band and come up with a strategy rather than looking to any one person to try to keep him/her up to speed. It's just not possible or reasonable for one person to force the rest of the band to play at a tempo that they're not feeling and it will just sound sloppy.
-Jeff
 
#6
gprigge said:
"...I will add a light slap to drive the mando chops back up to the right tempo."

On the back of the head?
Click to expand...

HAH!! I like that one! ;)

I've only ever played with one mandolin player who slowed down; as a species, they seem to want to speed up... :rollno:
 
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#10
Think about subdividing the tempo. Start with 1, 2, 3, 4; then 1-and, 2-and, 3-and, 4-and, and even if need be, 1-e-and-uh, 2-e-and-uh, 3-e-and-uh, 4-e-and-uh, to help that mandolin player play his upbeats properly. Even say it as well as feel it if necessary, to get everybody on board. Dragging the upbeats will definitely slow the band down. And like Jake said, this is interesting, as it is usually the mandolin player who speeds up, instead of slowing down, and this in addition to spending half his time tuning and the other half playing out of tune!

Whoever has the primary responsibility with the upbeats, probably your mandolin player, you need to have a practice with just the two of you to lock in those upbeats. He's probably playing by ear, in other words, playing the upbeat when he hears the downbeat, instead of anticipating, so that by the time he hears your downbeat, thinks, "Oh, it's time to play an upbeat," and then plays, he's late. The concept of internalizing the tempo and anticipation of the beat needs to be explained, demonstrated and then worked on to lock him in.
 
#11
iiipopes said:
Think about subdividing the tempo. Start with 1, 2, 3, 4; then 1-and, 2-and, 3-and, 4-and, and even if need be, 1-e-and-uh, 2-e-and-uh, 3-e-and-uh, 4-e-and-uh, to help that mandolin player play his upbeats properly. Even say it as well as feel it if necessary, to get everybody on board. Dragging the upbeats will definitely slow the band down. And like Jake said, this is interesting, as it is usually the mandolin player who speeds up, instead of slowing down, and this in addition to spending half his time tuning and the other half playing out of tune!

Whoever has the primary responsibility with the upbeats, probably your mandolin player, you need to have a practice with just the two of you to lock in those upbeats. He's probably playing by ear, in other words, playing the upbeat when he hears the downbeat, instead of anticipating, so that by the time he hears your downbeat, thinks, "Oh, it's time to play an upbeat," and then plays, he's late. The concept of anticipation of the beat needs to be explained, demonstrated and then worked on to lock him in.
Click to expand...

Excellent advice. Also: Rehearse with a metronome. And when all else fails, simplify. Not sure how this would work with a string band, but I often work with singer/songwriters, and I find the best way to keep them on the beat is to play on the downbeat and only on the downbeat. I find it hard to be simple in this kind of context, but sometimes it's the only way.
 
#12
One of my biggest challenges has been how to deal with larger jams where just about every tune constantly speeds up. Attempting to hold the tempo steady means you're dragging; follow the group and the tempo tends to spiral faster and faster. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't! And guess who always gets the blame . . .
 
#13
One of the best ways to developing a solid feel of time is to set the metronome at half the speed of the piece and have the click sound on beats 2 and 4.

This imitates a strong backbeat played by the guitar/mandolin/highhat/string slap etc.

Then when you play on beats 1 and 3, you get a greater feel of creating the beat.
 
#14
In a jam, I often use a light slap on the upbeat to help the mando (or other "chopper") to find the groove. In jams especially, folks doing chops often don't appreciate the responsibility associated with good chopping.

Because the frequency is so low and the strings have more mass to get moving (especially with an upright), the bass can seem to feel a little bit behind the pocket...even if only a millisecond. The easiest way, for me, is to make eye contact. When the chopper and the bass see each other, it's much easier to sync up. As a second choice, I point the F-holes directly towards the dragging party, and then as a last resort, I'll move to next to (or immediatly behind) the slow poke.

Communication is the key, both in between songs ("Hey, was that dragging a little?") and during the song (eye contact, being heard above the din etc).
 
#16
In addition to practicing with the metronome, I find it helpful to subdivide the beat mentally. If the tune has a strong quarter note pulse, think of the beat in eight notes. If the song has a strong half note feel, think of it in quarter notes. And so on. It's harder to loose your place if there are no 'gaps' in your mental pulse.

In a bluegrass setting, a little string slap in between the notes of your bass line can help to keep the dragging mandolin player in check. Of course, you only want to use that type of drastic measure sparingly.

Even better yet, get the whole band to practice with a metronome. As a bassist, it seems obvious that musicians need good time, but for a LOT of other musicians tempo is an afterthought . . . if even a thought at all (yeah, I'm looking at you horn players!) lol
 
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#17
A good pocket between you and the Mando is essential because they really do function as the "snare." As the bassist you primary two functions are to 1. define the chord, and 2. define the downbeat. If the mando drags the upbeat you have to not allow yourself to slow. The previous comments about having a discussion as a group about tempo are spot on. Be kind but firm. Also, practice something simple such as "Boil the Cabbage" to a metronome as a group. It will be frustrating at first but it will make the impression that time is important. Also make sure that you're keeping it simple. The more filler you put in the easier it is to waver on time. The best bands keep it tight by keeping it simple.
 
#18
My biggest problem was not with the mando but with the female vocalist (same musician, BTW). As a great many vocalists do, she often anticipates the one beat by beginning to sing it about a half beat early, back in the previous measure. This is not a mistake on her part; it's a very often heard vocal style, which I understand is called "pushing." Anyway, as a beginner I would hear her doing this and would think I was late and try to come in sooner, and the result was not good for either of us. It took me a while to learn that while I always had to listen to the vocalist, it was at least equally important to listen to myself and hold that beat steady no matter what she was doing against it. Needless to say, we both sound a lot better now.
 
#19
I was a "rock slab" guy for years who transitioned to upright about 5 years ago. I play in an old time string band now. Someone already described what beat you should be countering on so I wont go into that.

The only thing I'll throw advice on in is this -

Based on my experience if another rhythm player in the band (especially one handling lead vocal duty) starts to lag or lead on the beat in a gig situation, you are better off adjusting rather than trying to force the beat back to tempo. It's usually minor enough that the average listener wont notice as long as you're all still following each other. Musicians might notice, but if you try to force the other player back to tempo and they don't respond....well now two people are playing out of time with each other and everyone will notice.

I've tried many times to get guitarists, drummers, whatever to get back into "my time" with several techniques. Hardly ever works.

It would be nice to have perfect time between instruments, but it doesn't always shake out that way. IMO it's far more important that everyone is listening to one another and adjusting accordingly when tempo changes happen unplanned. I try to remind my band of this when we start having a sub-par practice.

I also change my bass lines when tempo differs, because there is more to tempo/rhythm than just metronome timing.
 
#20
sevenyearsdown said:
. . . Based on my experience if another rhythm player in the band (especially one handling lead vocal duty) starts to lag or lead on the beat in a gig situation, you are better off adjusting rather than trying to force the beat back to tempo. . . .
Click to expand...

Yes. I asked bassist Marshall Hawkins once what you do when the vocalist goes out of time. He said that during a gig you must adjust because you don't want to ruin the gig. But during practice, you stop everything and work on that time problem.
 

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