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Tone Junkies!

Well, its an experiment, albeit written by a 2nd or 3rd year undergrad, however it actually "proves" nothing. Its good, because its attempting to do something about the issue, and it has good face validity, but completely lacks construct validity. This isn't really a criticism, because the guy probably knows full well that it lacks construct validity and that's not his point. I'm pretty sure his point is to run the exercise of experimental design and do a little something in the process.

According to his own conclusions as well though, he finds in favour of the null hypothesis, that wood type in fact "does not contribute significantly to the sound of the amplified instrument".

I have no intention to turn this thread/post into a master class on experimental design, so I'm not going to break down the flaws point by point. Any social science undergrad who's done a basic stats class can do that easily.

Salman, I'm starting to think we're arguing for different aspects of the same point. We on the 'dark side' as you've put it, all concede that there is in fact a difference that can be assumed to be due to wood (if everything else is controlled for), however we also assert that the difference is negligible and likely not easily discerned by the human ear in a properly designed experiment.

So far, no one has been able to put together a coherent argument that proves (factually or logically) that our 'dark side' viewpoint is in fact wrong or incorrect. Most seem still to come over to this side after thinking about this quandary at length, and I think more are still on their way over.

On its face, it sure seems like wood would make a significant difference, however even the word "significant" carries with it operational definitions when you get into the science of it, and I'm still asserting (at the moment without solidly-based opposition) that the differences are very likely not going to be determined to be significant in the end, logically, or experimentally...
 
Well, its an experiment, albeit written by a 2nd or 3rd year undergrad, however it actually "proves" nothing. Its good, because its attempting to do something about the issue, and it has good face validity, but completely lacks construct validity. This isn't really a criticism, because the guy probably knows full well that it lacks construct validity and that's not his point. I'm pretty sure his point is to run the exercise of experimental design and do a little something in the process.

According to his own conclusions as well though, he finds in favour of the null hypothesis, that wood type in fact "does not contribute significantly to the sound of the amplified instrument".

I have no intention to turn this thread/post into a master class on experimental design, so I'm not going to break down the flaws point by point. Any social science undergrad who's done a basic stats class can do that easily.

Salman, I'm starting to think we're arguing for different aspects of the same point. We on the 'dark side' as you've put it, all concede that there is in fact a difference that can be assumed to be due to wood (if everything else is controlled for), however we also assert that the difference is negligible and likely not easily discerned by the human ear in a properly designed experiment.

So far, no one has been able to put together a coherent argument that proves (factually or logically) that our 'dark side' viewpoint is in fact wrong or incorrect. Most seem still to come over to this side after thinking about this quandary at length, and I think more are still on their way over.

On its face, it sure seems like wood would make a significant difference, however even the word "significant" carries with it operational definitions when you get into the science of it, and I'm still asserting (at the moment without solidly-based opposition) that the differences are very likely not going to be determined to be significant in the end, logically, or experimentally...

Ok. So I am to assume that all of your instruments are constructed in poly coated fiber board from this point on. After all, why would such an intellect as yourself spend good money on a bass made of, say, ash or alder? According to your theory, the wood is negligable, so it may as well be constructed of sheetrock, right? Just curious, what exactly are the make and brand of the instruments you play?
 
I never really understood the whole desire to modify. To me, I either like the sound of a specific bass or I don't. I just try to buy stuff I completely love instead of buying something I almost like and trying to make it better or making into something it's not.
 
Now now, no need to get upset - its just a discussion.
Ok. So I am to assume that all of your instruments are constructed in poly coated fiber board from this point on. After all, why would such an intellect as yourself spend good money on a bass made of, say, ash or alder?
(Why would you assume I'm an intellect and/or consider myself so?) The answer is, in order to make it attractive. And its not that I wouldn't make it out of wood, I'm just saying that which wood in particular makes little difference in how it affects "tone" in a solid-bodied electrically-amplified instrument.

According to your theory, the wood is negligable, so it may as well be constructed of sheetrock, right?
Sheetrock would be too weak and too heavy to make a functional instrument - but you already know that. And its not my theory (its pretty widely held if you read enough) its just that not many are chiming in as this topic has been done to death. I just like the stimulation of discussing perception-based theories.

Just curious, what exactly are the make and brand of the instruments you play?
Basses:
Fender Jazz (MIM)
Fender Precision (USA)
Squier Bronco
Ibanez SR505
EBMM Stingray

Electric Guitars:
Gibson Les Paul
Gibson SG
Epiphone SG
Fernandes Z
Silvertone (x2)

Acoustic Guitars:
P. Caballero classical
Art & Luthierie acoustic
Anjo parlour guitar

Banjos:
Goldtone
Anjo

Mandolin:
Goldtone

Cello:
Suzuki
 
I like tone wars! :-)
not that I know the answer, but I see woods as structural components.
I think a quality instrument needs quality woods.
It can happen, that two different wood has similar qualities, as they are close in their stiffness, for example.
I try to get the tone which is the best to my ears.. at the moment I feel that I won't get it with an all-maple neck. (maybe my opinion would change about this, but I have to build many instruments before this happen)
/anyway: it's interesting, that how many people are concerned about the high-end of their bass, and not about the low-end../

I'm thinking of making an objective test, which compares neck woods tonewise, but still don't know how to do that in a correct way. I think I should avoid as many components as possible.. only two identical square rods (from different woods), one string, one tuning machine...

no one has asked :) but I think, the most influence on the sound has the pickup PLACEMENT and the pickups itself. you can't beat pickup placement :)
 
Ok. So I am to assume that all of your instruments are constructed in poly coated fiber board from this point on. After all, why would such an intellect as yourself spend good money on a bass made of, say, ash or alder?

I bought my Ash Fender just for the look of Ash.

And the first skirmishes of TWIII appear to have been started :hiding:
 
First off I would have been more impressed with this experiment if the types of wood used has more significant differences than Alder and Ash...maybe Basswood and Hard Maple...i.e. a very softy wood and a very hard wood (he he...hard wood). I think the results would have been significantly different. Admittedly, under heavy amplification, the lines start to blur as the amplifiers characteristics become more evident as it reaches it's limits. If you are recording using direct out, however (very common with bass guitars), this amplification argument gains less traction as you are recording off a line level signal- no significant amplification. The signal coming off of the bass is more pure.

Well, its an experiment, albeit written by a 2nd or 3rd year undergrad, however it actually "proves" nothing. Its good, because its attempting to do something about the issue, and it has good face validity, but completely lacks construct validity. This isn't really a criticism, because the guy probably knows full well that it lacks construct validity and that's not his point. I'm pretty sure his point is to run the exercise of experimental design and do a little something in the process.

I don't think anyone is going to "prove" anything here. I think we all just like to argue and sound smart:p
That being said, please ignore my dickish tone here...I always like it when people look at facts and ignore them. The waveforms of the 2 woods are different, it's pretty plain to see. Subtle...yes. But that's what we're talking about...subtle differences in tone. How subtle depends on how different the wood is. The other thing this experiment did not address is sustain. Are you now going to argue that wood has no effect on sustain as well? Make a Styrofoam bass, see how much sustain you get...sustain also has an effect on the perceived "tone" of an instrument...how quickly a note dies off, how quickly the sound degrades certainly will effect the perceived "tone". If the highs drop off quickly, you'll say, that bass sounds muddy.

I have no intention to turn this thread/post into a master class on experimental design, so I'm not going to break down the flaws point by point. Any social science undergrad who's done a basic stats class can do that easily.

too late. :D

cheers, thanks for giving something interesting to do at work :hyper:
 
In fact, the more I look at the wave forms on this study, the more I'm convinced...on the A string for example, through the pick-up, there is about a 5-7 db difference around the 7000HZ frequency range. 5 db is certainly perceptible by the human ear. Granted this is not the dominant frequency on the A string, but it would add 'color' to the tone, or as stated in the study- 'overtone'.

Waiting patiently for rebuttal with my blue light saber at the ready :hiding:
 
The differences the fella found could easily have been accounted for by his plucking, pickup height, microphone distance, etcetera - none of which he controlled for in the experiment.

His data is interesting, but like I said, I'm pretty sure this paper was written in order to satisfy requirements of writing a paper, not for the topic itself - its far from a thesis or dissertation...
 
So...is there anyone that believes wood DOES make a difference that want's to answer the OP? IMO, just KNOWING two of the same basses with diffrent fingerboards will sound different, is proof enough to me that wood makes a difference. I think Salman's styrofoam reference is the perfect analogy.
 
The differences the fella found could easily have been accounted for by his plucking, pickup height, microphone distance, etcetera - none of which he controlled for in the experiment.

or it could be the wood :cool:


His data is interesting, but like I said, I'm pretty sure this paper was written in order to satisfy requirements of writing a paper, not for the topic itself - its far from a thesis or dissertation...

the reason he did the study has nothing to do with the results
 
You are ignoring the forest trying to see one tree.

Not at all. There are tons of variables here, and yes wood IS one of the variables.

Originally Posted by salman
the reason he did the study has nothing to do with the results

I envy your innocence but let me burst your balloon: YES IT DOES!

...far from innocent :D but facts are facts. The guy made 2 guitars out of slightly different wood, under sound wave analysis, they sounded slightly different. It does not matter why he decided to do it.
 
So...is there anyone that believes wood DOES make a difference that want's to answer the OP? IMO, just KNOWING two of the same basses with diffrent fingerboards will sound different, is proof enough to me that wood makes a difference. I think Salman's styrofoam reference is the perfect analogy.

Yea, that's right...obviously neither side is going to give in. I'm putting a white flag on my light saber...