Triple Threat Preamp Stack

[aphexafx]

Hi all, I'm designing a universal rig that will be my nexus for live playing, tracking, and reamping in one portable 10U rack. I'm a bass player so that's the focus, however I also play some textural guitar, etc. so both need to be covered...as well as whatever else we may want to plug into it over here, on stage, etc. Blah blah anyway...

I have room for three pres. My main bass tone comes from my pedalboard via a SABDDI and/or a EBS MicroBass II and I already have balanced lines from each of those into my recording interface. The rack itself is going to be more universal so I want to cover more ground. The pres will be in a looper-switched serial chain (main path) but everything in the rack also tracks in parallel via balanced lines to the on-board interface. I should also note that I am not after a specific sound on this rig...it's a portable Swiss Army Knife.

Here's what I'm thinking about:

#1 - SansAmp PSA 1.1 - HUGE range of tones for bass and guitar and whatever else, including big reamping possibilities for vocals and any other tracks. Functional for recording direct AND as an actual pre. Also programmable and can serve as a live pre in the MIDI chain. I think this is a stellar analog processor and along with a TC G-Major it seems very powerful for live use.

#2 - VT Bass - I have my beloved BDDI on my board but I think the VT Bass is awesome and it has a pretty wide tonal range. I don't care about how authentic the emulation is or what its even supposed to be emulating. To me it sounds like a VT Bass and I dig it. If I plug my board in I can track my board tone and also some VT in parallel.

#3 - Fender TBP-1 - This might be my favorite pre to play and I'm totally in love with the sound and it's just a lot of fun to tweak...kinda non-intuitive so I dig that. It's designed for bass but will also be great to have a pair of tubes to run tracks through, etc. Does sexy magical things to my 5 string Jazz.

Anyway that's where I'm at. It's a BIG project so I thought I'd lay it on the table. Is there anything that would fill any of these roles any better? Is there anything that would pair with any of these and be amazing?

I have searched the forum and research TONS of preamps, I'm just interested in your experience and expertise with multiple pres. I know it's a matter of personal taste...that's exactly what I want to hear about.


Nerdy OCD diagram!

 

[Jim Carr]

I like your choices, but might suggest a real all-tube pre for studio joy instead of the Sansamp. How about a Demeter or an A.R.T.? Jule Monique? Conversely, a BBE B-Max (the all SS model) has a very very aggressive and clean slap tone that will take your head off.

Finally, I'm sure the thought might have crossed your mind, but I have never set foot in a studio that wanted me to roll in a rack of gear. It's all good if it is your gig or your bucks for studio time—or your studio for that matter. If, however, you are hired as a sideman or as a bandmember, you will likely not be well regarded, IME, if you come with a 3-foot high rack of toys and a big pedal board. YMMV.

 

[Jim Carr]

By the way, my universal rig is a Type 85 Countryman DI and a couple of nice basses.

 

[aphexafx]

I like your choices, but might suggest a real all-tube pre for studio joy instead of the Sansamp. How about a Demeter or an A.R.T.? Jule Monique? Conversely, a BBE B-Max (the all SS model) has a very very aggressive and clean slap tone that will take your head off.

Finally, I'm sure the thought might have crossed your mind, but I have never set foot in a studio that wanted me to roll in a rack of gear. It's all good if it is your gig or your bucks for studio time—or your studio for that matter. If, however, you are hired as a sideman or as a bandmember, you will likely not be well regarded, IME, if you come with a 3-foot high rack of toys and a big pedal board. YMMV.

Awesome, I've considered the BBE units but they seemed scattered; I need to research them and I will do that now that you've mentioned them. I'm looking at the A.R.T. TPS II right now. Would an A.R.T. tube pre be miles above the Fender pre? It seems more universal...that's good for tracking and reamping (sorry to use buzz word so much meh) but maybe I would prefer the bass focus on the Fender. Ok A.R.T. is on the list. I just now found the Demeter HBP-1 and that's exciting. That's exactly what I was fishing for, THANK YOU!!!

There is no commercial studio time in my foreseeable future lol. This is MY rig for personal tracking at home and I would take it when we get together to record and on ambient gigs, etc. I wouldn't drag it into a recording session.

 

[Jim Carr]

I love the Fender Pre. Was used for years by BP magazine when reviewing basses. Hard to find used. The 2 RU A.R.T pre is nice. Like them both, but only from hearing and reading, not owning.

My A.R.T. is the disco'd 1 RU tube channel/channel strip.

 

[aphexafx]

Actually, speaking of channel strips...that's not a bad idea. I think that after I stew on it for a while I will come to the conclusion that a nice channel strip is something that will have to wait until I actually really need to have it. It would be a nice addition for sure.

I've been researching BMAX...I discovered a new pet peeve and that''s rack pres without rear inputs. A rear input with a front override input is best BUT a rear input is a must. Anyway it would be easy to add to the BMAX now that I have seen inside it and I have no problem modding gear. Maybe I can demo one somewhere.

I'm pretty resourceful and I know I can materialize a TBP-1. I just know it!

Thanks for the great input, Jim.

 

[DigitalMan]

How about

VT Bass, Jule Monique, and Avalon U5?

 

[Chef]

in one portable 10U rack.

Portable?
10 space?

Hmmmmm.......

Me, I'd go with a REDDI and an MBF800...Currently, I carry a Radial JDI and the MBF800.

 

[Dave W]

You had me at "portable 10U rack"

 

[aphexafx]

DigitalMan, nice rack. I like the JD7. Nice preamps too, but I don't know anything about the Jule Monique...stuff to research! Tell me about it. Thanks!

Chef, as for the DI and the MBF800; a Radial DI is already in my plan (clean tracking channel) and I don't need an amp. A GK preamp is an option though. Thanks for the suggestions!

LOL. I just meant portable as in, literally, able-to-be-ported. Portable for a rack. This isn't my bass rig. This is a tracking/reamping rig that I can also use live for certain things (weird ambient music things). I just want to be able to slap the covers on it and take it to my car if needed. This is not my general bass rig. This is like a bass-leaning producer pack that can go with me.

Invalid Link Removed

I am very familiar with the SKB racks and they seem pretty portable to me!

I can just describe what I'm putting together, real quick, not to go off topic... The primary (serial) path is managed by the Rocktron with two inputs, one of which also feeds the active Radial DI (passive instruments, clean channel to the interface). The serial path splits into two independent channels at the FX block for either stereo or multi-path. Each pre and each DSP is additionally connected to the mixer and the interface in parallel so that I can build any kind of DI mix that I want for the house or PA, monitor, etc. and I can record/track each pre and DSP separately as needed. Internally, one output from the interface feeds the Radial reamper that is jacked to the front panel so that it can be patched directly into any pre for simple and clean round-trip processing. The DSP (POD, could be AxFX someday) is linked both directions to the interface (SPDIF) for outboard processing without DA -> AD. Takes MIDI from my pedalboard for rack-wide live patches. Multi-use. All paths are lean and clean.

I like that I can use the processing section and the DI section of the PSA independently...that makes it easy to have a controllable split-path at the first DSP (G-Major).

So, currently I'm warm to the PSA because it's so versatile and the TBP-1 because it's so chewy and good.

The third slot is still up in the air. Thanks for any and all input! I'm learning a lot woohoo!

(Edited to be more clear)

 

[aphexafx]

How about

VT Bass, Jule Monique, and Avalon U5?

So you're running your preamps in parallel and mixing them down with the Rane? What is your path. I dig it, thanks for sharing.

 

[DigitalMan]

So you're running your preamps in parallel and mixing them down with the Rane? What is your path. I dig it, thanks for sharing.

Path is:

Line 6 out to JD7 input
(Line 6 tuner out to tuner)
JD7 outs to Monique, VT Bass, Avalon U5
Monique to Palmer
Palmer, VT Bass, U5 each to a compressor channel
Compressor outs to Rane mixer inputs 1-3
Rane mixer out to Rane para EQ
EQ out to power amp

It is utterly pointless and I thoroughly enjoy it.

 

[chienmort]

DigitalMan, nice rack. I like the JD7. Nice preamps too, but I don't know anything about the Jule Monique...stuff to research! Tell me about it. Thanks!

Chef, as for the DI and the MBF800; a Radial DI is already in my plan (clean tracking channel) and I don't need an amp. A GK preamp is an option though. Thanks for the suggestions!

LOL. I just meant portable as in, literally, able-to-be-ported. Portable for a rack. This isn't my bass rig. This is a tracking/reamping rig that I can also use live for certain things (weird ambient music things). I just want to be able to slap the covers on it and take it to my car if needed. This is not my general bass rig. This is like a bass-leaning producer pack that can go with me.

Invalid Link Removed

I am very familiar with the SKB racks and they seem pretty portable to me!

I can just describe what I'm putting together, real quick, not to go off topic... The primary (serial) path is managed by the Rocktron with two inputs, one of which also feeds the active Radial DI (passive instruments, clean channel to the interface). The serial path splits into two independent channels at the FX block for either stereo or multi-path. Each pre and each DSP is additionally connected to the mixer and the interface in parallel so that I can build any kind of DI mix that I want for the house or PA, monitor, etc. and I can record/track each pre and DSP separately as needed. Internally, one output from the interface feeds the Radial reamper that is jacked to the front panel so that it can be patched directly into any pre for simple and clean round-trip processing. The DSP (POD, could be AxFX someday) is linked both directions to the interface (SPDIF) for outboard processing without DA -> AD. Takes MIDI from my pedalboard for rack-wide live patches. Multi-use. All paths are lean and clean.

I like that I can use the processing section and the DI section of the PSA independently...that makes it easy to have a controllable split-path at the first DSP (G-Major).

So, currently I'm warm to the PSA because it's so versatile and the TBP-1 because it's so chewy and good.

The third slot is still up in the air. Thanks for any and all input! I'm learning a lot woohoo!

(Edited to be more clear)

In the early days of video they called that "transportable" rather than portable.


It ain't how low you can go but what you do when you get there!

 

[aphexafx]

In the early days of video they called that "transportable" rather than portable.

Haha that reminds me of early 90's NewTek Video Toaster promo videos where they would show the huge broadcast truck with like three transmitter dishes and 10" air ducting coming out of the back and the engineers pulling their hair in frustration...and then they would show the little Amiga/Toaster on a clean modern desk with a cup of coffee.

I'm taking "portable" off the table and replacing it with "transportable".

I wish I could play ALL of these preamps that I'm digging up manuals and docs for...anyway nothing stops, it can/will evolve.

 

[DigitalMan]

DigitalMan, nice rack. I like the JD7. Nice preamps too, but I don't know anything about the Jule Monique...stuff to research! Tell me about it. Thanks!

Chef, as for the DI and the MBF800; a Radial DI is already in my plan (clean tracking channel) and I don't need an amp. A GK preamp is an option though. Thanks for the suggestions!

LOL. I just meant portable as in, literally, able-to-be-ported. Portable for a rack. This isn't my bass rig. This is a tracking/reamping rig that I can also use live for certain things (weird ambient music things). I just want to be able to slap the covers on it and take it to my car if needed. This is not my general bass rig. This is like a bass-leaning producer pack that can go with me.

Invalid Link Removed

I am very familiar with the SKB racks and they seem pretty portable to me!

I can just describe what I'm putting together, real quick, not to go off topic... The primary (serial) path is managed by the Rocktron with two inputs, one of which also feeds the active Radial DI (passive instruments, clean channel to the interface). The serial path splits into two independent channels at the FX block for either stereo or multi-path. Each pre and each DSP is additionally connected to the mixer and the interface in parallel so that I can build any kind of DI mix that I want for the house or PA, monitor, etc. and I can record/track each pre and DSP separately as needed. Internally, one output from the interface feeds the Radial reamper that is jacked to the front panel so that it can be patched directly into any pre for simple and clean round-trip processing. The DSP (POD, could be AxFX someday) is linked both directions to the interface (SPDIF) for outboard processing without DA -> AD. Takes MIDI from my pedalboard for rack-wide live patches. Multi-use. All paths are lean and clean.

I like that I can use the processing section and the DI section of the PSA independently...that makes it easy to have a controllable split-path at the first DSP (G-Major).

So, currently I'm warm to the PSA because it's so versatile and the TBP-1 because it's so chewy and good.

The third slot is still up in the air. Thanks for any and all input! I'm learning a lot woohoo!

(Edited to be more clear)

WRT to Jule Monique there is a great thread dedicated to it here in the amp section. It's a fantastic tube preamp. My idea for the rack aside from ripping off Geddy Lee was to have the ability to combine sounds from three different camps. Monique is many folks choice as the pinnacle of clean tube sound. I find it to be the closest match between what I feel in my hands and what I hear coming out of the amp at the same time. Of course then I go and muck it up with everything else in my signal chain. .

 

[aledeville]

@DigitalMan
Are you going from the U5 into the 166XL? Isn't that casting pearls before swine? I mean... the 166 is not as bad as the 266, but still miles behind a 160A for instance.

@OP
Why not just a splitter at the beginning of the signalpath and then the three preamps into the soundcard? I'd definitely keep the TBP-1, but make sure to put JJ 12AX7's in it. Especially for the V1. It does wonders. The stock Sovteks are as bad as it could get...

 

[aphexafx]

Why not just a splitter at the beginning of the signalpath and then the three preamps into the soundcard? I'd definitely keep the TBP-1, but make sure to put JJ 12AX7's in it. Especially for the V1. It does wonders. The stock Sovteks are as bad as it could get...

I have the pre's in series so that they are MIDI switchable without a splitter or other buffers. I want to keep as many buffers out of the serial chain as possible and I prefer to be instrument-direct into the preamps. For direct recording and retracking I/we would plug into the pre's panel input directly. Each pre is direct to the audio interface already. The DI loads the pass-through minimally (if I understand correctly) but it can be bypassed as well. For recording the three pres are direct to the interface. For performance they are in series and switchable. <-- this is probably over planning though.

To run them in parallel I would need a super high quality splitter like the JD7 that DigitalMan is using. I'm interested and that can be part of phase two.

Thanks for the advice on the TBP-1 tubes. JJ Electronics. Looks like a easy $20 upgrade. I see the Tung Sol name being tossed around too. I'm fairly stuck on the TBP-1. I like it too much to not start out with it at least. Thanks for the encouragement!

 

[aphexafx]

Just a side Q: There is no need to buy matched pairs of tubes for the TBP-1 is there? They are each part of different stages in series right? Are matched pairs at all beneficial here?

 

[aledeville]

No, just buy any tube. Matching does not make sense, since the tubes all have different functions. The JJ's are really cheap, yet so amazing. No idea why the put the Sovteks as stock tubes in it. No definition, way too much bass.

But... do you have three preamps in SERIES and you are concerned about any buffer?
IME, more than one full preamp is too much. The sound does not get better, it always felt as if the weaknesses would add up, but not the strength.

 

[aphexafx]

No, just buy any tube. Matching does not make sense, since the tubes all have different functions.

But... do you have three preamps in SERIES and you are concerned about any buffer?

Awesome, thanks!

They are in series but via a passive looper/switcher. I would only patch in one of them at a time and the instrument would be direct to it. Or I could bypass all of them with a synth plugged in, going straight to the FX block at line level, etc.

---

I'm taking my bass down to Colorado Springs to hang out and demo a VT Rack again. I wish I could go somewhere and try out some high end channel strips. Or I wish I could afford/justify an ISA430. I'm reading lots of opinions about it and it sounds like a dream.