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Double Bass Tuning the Double Bass

#22
This is all splitting a few cycles here and there. Accept the imperfection. After all, at least in my case, those few cycles (or more :)) either way are going to be flying all over once you actually start playing and stop focusing on the tuner. While the small differences may be discriminable in the laboratory, the real question is whether it actually matters in terms of the art. I would argue that it does not. I'm certainly not saying that intonation does not matter. What I am saying is that as the notes go by, no one is discerning or caring whether they are a few cents off either way. I doubt that even the most gifted player can achieve any better in a run of notes. As some have pointed out, the attack, steady state, and decay portions of a note can all be slightly different in terms of fundamental frequency. The brain of the listener (and the player) does some nice averaging for you. So, we are back to "use your ears."
 
#23
No, I hear all of what you are saying. But, I have actually played in bass sections from time to time where people start listening for these differentials, especially during tuning. Makes it a little tough when the weight of the bow on the string affects what people are hearing.

I'll just lighten up!
 
#24
There was a video posted awhile back that had a well respected player (who will remain nameless). It was said (seriously) that his intonation was 'spot on as usual'. To my ears the player was slightly off the entire peice - just enough to make me cringe. There was another posted where I myself heard no problems, but the player was blasted for being out of tune. So tuning and intonation are always subjective to both player and listener.
 
#25
Typically I will just take an A from a source (piano, etc.) and tune w/harmonics and the bow. It works just like an electric-the 7th (virtual) fret D on the G string is repeated on the 5th (virtual) fret of the D and so on. With an inexpensive bridge tuner like a Snark using the harmonics at the (virtual) 12th fret is a good idea. After playing the raft of Holiday Parties with dodgy piano tuning (What do you mean? We just polished our Steinway! ;)) I am reminded that tuning to instruments your playing with is the best way to go. With those pianos that have 8 different As-well, you're on your own! ;)
 
#28
bassist1962 said:
...So tuning and intonation are always subjective to both player and listener.
Click to expand...

Yes, I get what you're saying but, of course, there is some objectivity. The discrepancies people tolerate certainly vary. Then there's the fact that, sometimes, people are incorrect in their judgments (when referenced to a particular target scale). This opens up the whole issue of well-tempered vs. perfect intervals. :eek: If you want to tune to the well-tempered scale, then tuning by matching harmonics (at anything but octaves) will produce "errors." One can go crazy over a few cents. That's my two, anyway. :D
 
#31
jeffbonny said:
Aw, they're just having a little fun. But seriously it doesn't really matter that much....it's not like having the bass well tuned ever makes anyone actually sound in tune.
Click to expand...
I know. not intending to be defensive.

Part of the reason for asking is that I was tuning the other day and looking at what I described; and it recalled the time I spent in the Stanford Orchestra. The conductor was Andor Toth, a somewhat well known violinist who founded the Stanford String Quartet. He was absolutely ruthless with tuning the string sections, and believe me, the few cents mattered. I have better pitch than most; so can hear what's going on. Anyhow, that created some interesting challenges. I can see the why with the tuners now; but not sure how to think about it.

I remember my first teacher, Bob Gladstone, telling me back then I was too analytical and should get more of the Jazz approach; like - "hey man, what's it to you!" Good advice.
 
#35
Funny thread all around. Ed's *you mean you can TUNE it* had me LOL.
Seriously, the open strings are likely to be slightly off tune a lot of your playing. If you mostly play pizz, tune them open and harmonic on pizz, although, my experience is the harmonic doesn't match the open string, so again I tune to the register I expect to be playing with mostly. If arco, try a kind of a *typcial* arco stroke, not too light and not too heavy because there are other ways to convey intensity arco other than bow weight. Better to bow *up* to the average most of the time than be terribly out of tune when you dig in, IMO, but context is everything. Lot's of relaxed notes contradicts that advice.
In my experience, a *few cents* either way DOES matter, so sweating the best open string pitch is worth the effort. For instance, I have an ear training program that plays two pitches 5 cents apart and asks you to guess which is lower or higher, alternating. I get that exercise 100% since the first time I tried it, and I don't have perfect pitch, but I think I have have pretty refined relative pitch, which improves as I play.
Even then, every now and again I'll look at my left hand wondering why the pitch is so off during a performance. Less and less over the years, but still. Sometimes, believe it or not, it's not my fault, but the singer's, or a mistake by the guitarist or pianist. Still, a disconcerting event at the least.
Honestly, I don't think most of my bandmates nor the audience notice during the gig, but I NOTICE big time listening to recordings after the fact, and just because something is difficult to achieve doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it.
 
#36
tcl said:
Funny thread all around. Ed's *you mean you can TUNE it* had me LOL.
Seriously, the open strings are likely to be slightly off tune a lot of your playing. If you mostly play pizz, tune them open and harmonic on pizz, although, my experience is the harmonic doesn't match the open string, so again I tune to the register I expect to be playing with mostly. If arco, try a kind of a *typcial* arco stroke, not too light and not too heavy because there are other ways to convey intensity arco other than bow weight. Better to bow *up* to the average most of the time than be terribly out of tune when you dig in, IMO, but context is everything. Lot's of relaxed notes contradicts that advice.
In my experience, a *few cents* either way DOES matter, so sweating the best open string pitch is worth the effort. For instance, I have an ear training program that plays two pitches 5 cents apart and asks you to guess which is lower or higher, alternating. I get that exercise 100% since the first time I tried it, and I don't have perfect pitch, but I think I have have pretty refined relative pitch, which improves as I play.
Even then, every now and again I'll look at my left hand wondering why the pitch is so off during a performance. Less and less over the years, but still. Sometimes, believe it or not, it's not my fault, but the singer's, or a mistake by the guitarist or pianist. Still, a disconcerting event at the least.
Honestly, I don't think most of my bandmates nor the audience notice during the gig, but I NOTICE big time listening to recordings after the fact, and just because something is difficult to achieve doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I wasn't clear about what I meant. My point was that, given the sources of variance involved, worrying about the variance in the tuning-process that are associated with the bowing stroke, when it amounts to a few cents, is likely not meaningful. You can toil over the correct open-string tuning all you want. As you point out, bowing pressure while playing can cause slight changes in pitch. Varying pizz. pressure, can produce changes in pitch. Human limitations will produce variations in pitch. An example I gave was the departure from the well-tempered scale that's produced by tuning with harmonics, a method used by many symphony players. I'm talking about variations on the order of what is actually "a few," as in three or so. Yes, intonation is extremely important. I was advocating that the adjustments are best made by ear and while playing, as opposed to obsessing about the variation in the digital readout on the tuner as one bows the open string. Now, that said, I tune my open strings just about as close as I can get them via moderate open-string pizz or at the octave harmonic.

On a related note (pun intended :)):
You mentioned that you can discern a five-cent difference in frequency. Five cents corresponds to a frequency ratio of about 1.03. That's right about at the "delta-f" threshold for humans in a task such as you describe. For example, 3 Hz, given a reference of 1000 Hz. Actually, humans can perform even better in other types of tasks, but I'll leave that alone. Now, do you suppose that you could discern that five-cent difference in a run of eighth notes at moderate tempo, given no reference? I doubt it. Even so, I agree, that players should, indeed, strive for the best intonation that they can possibly achieve. Again, IMO, the obsession should be placed on getting it right under playing conditions and developing the ear-brain-finger feedback loop.
 
#37
#38
Ed Fuqua said:
http://news.uchicago.edu/article/2013/06/11/perfect-pitch-may-not-be-absolute-after-all

The other study I'm having a hard time finding now, was a Pavlov type experiment where correctly identifying A440 got you the reward. Once they had that habituated that, they started futzing with the A, and (if I recall correctly) the physical response identified as A440 anywhere from 432 to 448...
Click to expand...

Ed-- Thanks for this info. Gotta say though that, based on the description of that study, there may be holes big enough to drive a 4/4 DB! :) The second type of experiment you cite is called a "generalization gradient" study. It's not really indicative of the ability to discriminate frequencies.
 
#40
gerry grable said:
....it's not like having the bass well tuned ever makes anyone actually sound in tune.

Ha, ha. . .I'm with you and Jake :D
But seriously guys, don't beat yourselves up.
You could be timpani players.
Click to expand...

That reminds me of the variant on the joke of the bass player and the kid:
Q: Why was the bassist mad at the timpanist?
A: He turned one of the bass's tuning pegs and wouldn't tell the bassist which one! :D
I'll be here all week! Try the veal!
 

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