Two amp idea

[Bob Coldwell]

I'm in a constant struggle to hear myself better on stage without being too loud for everyone else.

I just started reading about the Phil Jones Ear Box, a near field (very) high pass "monitor" (although PJB says that's not an accurate term).

It seems that this unit is not the Holy Grail for everyone though. So I'm wondering how this would work, and whether anyone here has tried it:

Mount a mini amp on a mic stand, close to your head. Plug that and your regular stage amp into an ABY box.

 

[abarson]

Most mini amps that can be mic stand mounted are meant for vocal monitoring and won't deliver good bass. I'm not aware of any good sounding bass amp that could be mic stand mounted, but maybe a speaker stand would work better. Possibly a Markbass Micromark 801? You'd need to come up with your own mounting system.

What amp and cabinet are you currently using?
I use an Acme B2 210 cabinet and always put it on a stool/chair/milk crate to get it closer to my ears. Depending on what your amp is, an angled amp stand might work.
Gator Frameworks GFW-GTR-AMP - Combo Amp Stand

Another option might be a combo amp of the kickback design, such as the Ashdown OriginAL C112, Harkte KB12 or KB15, or Markbass CMD 102P. This design allows you to tilt the speaker up towards your head.

Where is your amp situated in relation to you and the other band members?

And not to be snarky, but it may be worthwhile to have your hearing checked.

 

[Marko 1]

I'm in a constant struggle to hear myself better on stage without being too loud for everyone else.

Could be an EQ thing...

more mids, and lose the mid-scoop if that's what you've got.

And yeah, get the cab positioned closer/aimed to your head.

 

[two fingers]

Sounds to me like an EQ thing...

more mids, and lose the mid-scoop if that's what you've got.

This. Unscoop and your bass will JUMP out of your amp.

The sound guy will be much happier too (said the guy who also runs sound).

 

[Wasnex]

I believe @Zbysek has quite a bit of experience with the Ear Box.

The description does suggest it is high passed. From the webpage:

It is very high impedance: almost 1000 ohms at bass frequencies, tapering down to 24 ohms, at the very highest frequencies.
​

At 1000 ohms it will only dissipate a very low amount of power.

Let's look at the resulting power with 40V

-At 4 ohms 40V results in 400W
-At 8 ohms 40V results in 200W
-At 24 ohms 40V results in 67W
-At 1000 ohms 40V results in 1.6W
​

So as you can see, the Ear Box will not take any significant power at low frequencies. By this I mean it blocks the power at low frequencies.

The webpage also says:

Response: 250 Hz – 20 KHz​

I have not used the Ear Box, but I have used a pair of Galaxy Audio HotSpots. These had a frequency response of 170-13khz +/- 6dB.

You would probably be surprised how well these worked with a full band monitor mix (minus bass). I am sure they would have worked better if I could have processed them with an HPF and a bit of EQ, but I did not have this type of gear available.

I used the HotSpots primarily for my monitor mix, which was sent from FOH. I was running a rack mixer and a stereo power amp. I sent one channel to the HotSpots and the other channel to an Eden D210XLT on a 16-space rolling rack behind me. The 210 was tilted back to aim at my ears. I added a little bass to the HotSpots. It did not fill out the lows or even the low mids, but it did add a bit of clarity in the mids that helped me hear the bass better. The time when this was most beneficial was when we performed in really bad acoustic spaces, like gyms.

I was very meticulous with the spacing between the three cabs. If I got the spacing just right, it created an effect like surround sound. It basically created a sound stage where the phantom image of my bass seemed to come equally from all directions. If I moved my head slightly in any direction the effect would disappear, and I would hear primarily the speaker I was closest to. This is an important consideration. IMHO, for optimum results, the spacing and intensity shading between speakers is critical.

Before investing in a Ear Box, I would suggest elevating your cab and tilting it to aim at your ears. Speakers tend to be omni-directional below 100hz. But as the frequency rises, pattern control increases. By the time the frequency has risen into the mids, the sound is shooting out in front of the cab in a fairly narrow beam. If you don't aim this beam at your ears, you will not hear the high-mids and highs, at least not the direct sound coming from the cab. Rather, the beam will shoot out below your ears. Aiming the cab at your ears will allow you to hear the truest tone.

Good luck!

 

[Zbysek]

I believe @Zbysek has quite a bit of experience with the Ear Box.

Yes, I own and use the Ear Box. It allows me to hear myself better without playing too loud.

 

[Gruff]

I'm in a constant struggle to hear myself better on stage without being too loud for everyone else.

I have a similar problem, and it seems mostly to be due to hearing loss. I've had a test but apparently my hearing is about average for my age (mid-50's). I've struggled the last few times on stage so have ordered IEMs with a 15dB cut on ambient sound. Hopefully that will help!

 

[Zbysek]

I'm in a constant struggle to hear myself better on stage without being too loud for everyone else.

Many people feel the same, including myself. Throughout the years, I have acquired the following devices which help me to hear my bass well without playing (too) loud.

1. IEM (headphones). I understand this is not the path you want to take (at the moment) so I will not elaborate on it any more.

2. Tactile transducers (Eich Bassboard, Eich Drum chair, Backbeat). These devices give you the feeling of low frequencies without anybody hearing them. They move your body and your brain tells you that you hear the lows. They are primarily made/marketed for players using IEM. I am using them both with and without headphones though. When I use one of them with a cab (without IEM) it allows me to drastically decrease the volume of my cab...plus I cut bass a lot. That way, the tactile transducer provides me with lows and the cab provides me with mids. On Saturday, I played at an outdoor festiwal. The stage was huge. I used Eich Bassboard and a tiny 1x12 cab. It felt like standing in front of a wall of Ampeg fridges.

3. Last but not least: Ear Box

I use it with a cab usually (as recommended by the manufacturer). I put the cab on the floor and I place the Ear Box on mic stand next to my ear. The cab supplies the lows and low mids while the Ear Box supplies the high mids and highs for my ears.

Sometimes I use it without a cab. When we play in small rooms with one of my bands, the stage bleed is a significant issue. So I came up with this solution: I sit on the Eich drumchair and use Ear Box to hear high mids and highs. No bass cab on the "stage" means no stage bleed from bass...

Once, I even used the Ear Box on its own: we played in a large club with huge subs...so I knew I would hear the lows from FOH.

It seems that this unit is not the Holy Grail for everyone though.

Probably not. But it serves me well. What I consider important is to use LPF with the Ear Box-it allows me to cut the harsh highs and hear the high mids... IME, the Ear Box allows me to decrease volume of my cab a bit (not a lot).

So I'm wondering how this would work, and whether anyone here has tried it:

Mount a mini amp on a mic stand, close to your head. Plug that and your regular stage amp into an ABY box.

I don't think it would work well. If you use two sources of low frequencies, those two sources can compete with each other creating various issues...

To conclude:

1. IMHO, Ear Box is a better (and cheaper) solution than second combo amp on a mic stand.

2. If you want to decrease the volume of your cab a lot while still hearing yourself well, you should consider tactile transducers (especially Eich Bassboard).

Good luck!

Links:

EICH Amplification
Eich DBC400R | EICH Amplification
BackBeat - Play Bass, Feel Bass

 

[Zbysek]

One important thing to add: IME, in order to become satisfied with live monitoring, one needs to lower his/her expectations. Live sound will never be perfect. Compromise is always neccessary.

After all those years playing bass (20+), I don't expect perfect sound for my monitoring. I expect sound which gets me through the gig. Not more not less. That way, I am able to enjoy vast majority of my gigs.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Many people feel the same, including myself. Throughout the years, I have acquired the following devices which help me to hear my bass well without playing (too) loud.

1. IEM (headphones). I understand this is not the path you want to take (at the moment) so I will not elaborate on it any more.

2. Tactile transducers (Eich Bassboard, Eich Drum chair, Backbeat). These devices give you the feeling of low frequencies without anybody hearing them. They move your body and your brain tells you that you hear the lows. They are primarily made/marketed for players using IEM. I am using them both with and without headphones though. When I use one of them with a cab (without IEM) it allows me to drastically decrease the volume of my cab...plus I cut bass a lot. That way, the tactile transducer provides me with lows and the cab provides me with mids. On Saturday, I played at an outdoor festiwal. The stage was huge. I used Eich Bassboard and a tiny 1x12 cab. It felt like standing in front of a wall of Ampeg fridges.

3. Last but not least: Ear Box

I use it with a cab usually (as recommended by the manufacturer). I put the cab on the floor and I place the Ear Box on mic stand next to my ear. The cab supplies the lows and low mids while the Ear Box supplies the high mids and highs for my ears.

Sometimes I use it without a cab. When we play in small rooms with one of my bands, the stage bleed is a significant issue. So I came up with this solution: I sit on the Eich drumchair and use Ear Box to hear high mids and highs. No bass cab on the "stage" means no stage bleed from bass...

Once, I even used the Ear Box on its own: we played in a large club with huge subs...so I knew I would hear the lows from FOH.



Probably not. But it serves me well. What I consider important is to use LPF with the Ear Box-it allows me to cut the harsh highs and hear the high mids... IME, the Ear Box allows me to decrease volume of my cab a bit (not a lot).



I don't think it would work well. If you use two sources of low frequencies, those two sources can compete with each other creating various issues...

To conclude:

1. IMHO, Ear Box is a better (and cheaper) solution than second combo amp on a mic stand.

2. If you want to decrease the volume of your cab a lot while still hearing yourself well, you should consider tactile transducers (especially Eich Bassboard).

Good luck!

Links:

EICH Amplification
Eich DBC400R | EICH Amplification
BackBeat - Play Bass, Feel Bass

+1 on tactile transducers. I had a Buttkicker at my last church with IEMs and Avioms. That thing would shake you enough your eyes would bounce…jokes aside, it was like having a wall of SVTs behind you.

 

[iiipopes]

I don't take an amp on stage. I use a Behringer hot spot style monitor for articulation of my bass, vocals, and keys.

 

[Bob Coldwell]

Thanks for the replies.

The band isn't loud. The problem is cramped stages and quiet venues.

I'm using a GK MB500 with one GK CX210, tilted back with a 2×4. The angle is not perfect though.

I've never been a fan of propping a cab on a crate or chair. It loses the low end. But I may give it another try.

If I have hearing loss, that ship has sailed. I will clarify that I can hear all of the instruments. I'm just pickier about the bass because I'm the bass player.

 

[Bob Coldwell]

A couple more things:

I don't do the scooped eq, so that's not an issue.

I may look into kickback style setup, but I haven't found the ideal combo amp yet. The Carvin tilt-back bass cabinet I used to own was a bit of a disappointment.

 

[Killing Floor]

I used to do something similar. I’d put my 412 on top of my 215 so when I was too close to hear all the detail from the 215 I could still hear the snap from the 4 12”. Now I hear a lot of cicadas.

 

[el murdoque]

An active monitor wedge that is pointed at your head helps.

IEM is another great thing for that scenario.

If the stage permits, some distance between you and your amp. And by some, I mean as much as possible.

 

[Bob Coldwell]

An active monitor wedge that is pointed at your head helps.

IEM is another great thing for that scenario.

If the stage permits, some distance between you and your amp. And by some, I mean as much as possible.

The stage doesn't permit. That is the crux of the problem.

 

[Lobster11]

TI've never been a fan of propping a cab on a crate or chair. It loses the low end.

Not if you set it on top of a matching 2x10!

 

[Bob Coldwell]

I have one, but it's overkill for my current band.

I have another thread asking how a pair of PJB Cab27s (stacked) would compare to my one GK CX210. No replies on that one yet.

 

[sawzalot]

I use IEM's, and I can set my bass exactly how I want it. My band had an X32 Rack that we used for monitors, and we'd use that with an analog splitter at every venue. The FOH engineers loved it because they no longer had to worry about monitors at all, and I loved it because I could make my bass as loud or soft as I wanted in my ears. From there it's just a matter of figuring out how to get my sound out to the rest of the band--they mostly used their own IEM's or a couple of wedges with enough of me for them to hear some articulation over the PA subs.

 

[coy garcia]

I use a 112 BBC tank cab. The way it downfires really makes the bass loud on stage. It doesn't carry as well into the house but for onstage it solved this problem form me.