UK music licensing laws

[Howard K]

...well I'm guilty of over reacting too

I read it to and it does seem to make some good points about the current regulations and the changes.

..and the fact that licence is only neccessary where someone is making profit seems fair.

I'm also glad that the broadcast of pre-recorded music is in there, so DJ's dont escape under the "two person rule" as they called it.

Although, the maximum fines still seem rather high?
I mean it doesnt define what a £20k fine apply to does it?
I mean sure two old folk singers in a pub arent going to get fined.. but what about a gig in someones garden?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by moley


It's not quite as bad as you make it seem, Bruce.

Well - it 's not how I've made it - if this is the case, why is the petition worded in that way then? (se above) Why have 50 thousand people signed it?

I was just going on the numerous petition sites - set up by people like Billy Bragg - I just copied what they said.

Are they all wrong and you right!

 

[moley]

Originally posted by Howard K
but what about a gig in someones garden?

It says in the bill that live performance is only licensable in private when it is for profit. So, if guests are being charged for it, I would suppose, yes, it is licensable, so a fine would be in order. If it were found out, that is

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Are they all wrong and you right!

I don't know - read the bill and decide for yourself. What I said was that it wasn't as bad as you made out. You said:

This will also affect - rehearsals, playing with friends in your own home, even playing an instrument in a music shop - they will have to have a performance licence or you won't be able to play any of the instruments!!

That isn't true. Read what it says in the bill - rehearsals, playing with friends in your own home (assuming you don't charge them!!), and playing instruments in a music shop are exempt from this.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Here's the exact wording of the petition that everybody is signing :

"We, the undersigned, are concerned that the Licensing Bill proposals to make the performance of live music licensable in pubs and clubs, in places where alcohol is served, in churches, synagogues, mosques and other places of worship, in schools and colleges, in community centres and village and parish halls, and in private homes and gardens where private parties and weddings may be held will have an enormously detrimental effect on musicians and live music performances; fears that the raising of money for charities by musicians will be seriously compromised; consider it will seriously impinge on the folk community including folk music and traditional folk activities such as morris dancing, wassailing, etc; believe that the penalties for breaking the law of a six month jail sentence of a £20,000 fine are far too draconian; consider it grossly unfair and inconsistent that live music will not be licensable in Scotland but will be in England and Wales; regret that the Government has decided to replace the anomalous two in a bar rule with a none in a bar rule which will catch all live music performances; believes that the requirement for the provision of entertainment facilities to become licensable which will ensnare music shops, music and dance studios and teachers, represents a totally unacceptable regulatory intrusion into mainstream activities; and calls on the Government to amend the relevant parts of bill in order to remove the iniquities faced by musicians and the music industry as a whole.

Sincerely, [/B]

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by moley

What I said was that it wasn't as bad as you made out.

NO - it wasn't me saying that, it was all the petitions I have seen and read, like the one copied above (twice now!! )

I was asking if you think the thousands of people signing these, like Billy Bragg are wrong?

 

[moley]

Well, what the article you quoted said was correct - "private homes and gardens where private parties and weddings may be held" are affected. But it was you that said that "This will also affect - rehearsals, playing with friends in your own home, even playing an instrument in a music shop - they will have to have a performance licence or you won't be able to play any of the instruments!!". And that was the bit that wasn't accurate, not the quote from the petition.

And no, I don't think the people signing the petition are wrong. I've signed it myself for Christ sakes. But it wasn't the petition that was saying that rehearsals, playing with friends, and playing in a music shop were affected.

But I'm not gonna let this turn into another sodding argument.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by moley
Well, what the article you quoted said was correct - "private homes and gardens where private parties and weddings may be held" are affected. But it was you that said that "This will also affect - rehearsals, playing with friends in your own home,even playing an instrument in a music shop ....And that was the bit that wasn't accurate, not the quote from the petition.

Well I think that is "nit-picking" - what if you are having a party in your own home, that is open to the public and this is the whole point - so if the Police come round and tell you to stop, do you think they will be convinced if you said you were just rehearsing with your friends and all these people being here, is just a coincidence? I don't think so!!

When I was young and poor, I rehearsed with a band in a local bingo hall and the Police have come along and shut us down - saying the place didn't have a music licence - how much easier is it going to be now!!

Also - you obviously didn't read the part in the petition which says :

"the provision of entertainment facilities to become licensable which will ensnare music shops,"

Come on - I've posted it twice!!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator
here's a link to the actual bill-

Invalid Link Removed

I have to say it doesn't sound as bad as some people have made it out to be.

That is NOT a link to the actual bill - it is just a letter wriiten by an MP defending it!! And of course tries to make it sound better than it is!!

 

[moley]

Well, this is what it says, anyway. Making it sound better than it is is one thing, but outright lying about the contents of the bill is another. Draw your own conclusions...

10. Music shops and recording and broadcasting studios



10.1 With regard to a music shop, if a customer wishes to test a new musical instrument, for example, there would be no requirement for a licence. The playing of the instrument in the shop is for the purpose of demonstrating and selling the instrument, and not for the purpose of entertaining the potential purchaser.



10.2 Performances in a rehearsal studio or broadcasting studio are not licensable where there is no audience present. Entertainment facilities at such studios only give rise to a requirement for a licence if the means provided for making music are provided for enabling persons to take part in an entertainment. Rehearsal studios are not providing an entertainment or providing facilities for people to take part in an entertainment. A broadcasting studio recording a programme without an audience is similarly exempt because it does not charge the musicians for the facilities. On the contrary, it pays them.

6. Entertainment in private homes and gardens



6.1 The Private Places of Entertainment (Licensing) Act 1967 already enables local authorities to licence many private events that are promoted for private gain. The only places otherwise exempt under the 1967 Act are premises licensed for other purposes. The Licensing Bill draws together these varied permissions into a single scheme that is clearer and easier for everyone to understand and use.



6.2 However, any performances of live music that take place in private homes and gardens for private parties and weddings will not be licensable unless the host takes the unusual step of charging the guests to attend with a view to making profit.



6.3 The Bill does nothing to affect what people are entitled to do in their own homes unless the public are admitted or guests are charged with a view to profit rather than to simply cover costs.

9. Music and dance studios.



9.1 The Licensing Bill will not result in the licensing of performances in a rehearsal studio or broadcasting studio for the simple reason that no audience would be present. A licence would only be required if the equipment in the studio is being used to provide entertainment to the public and as rehearsal studios do not generally provide entertainment or the facilities for people to take part in entertainment there is no requirement for a licence. However, if a dress rehearsal is provided for the public an authorisation will be required. A broadcasting studio recording a programme without an audience is similarly exempt.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

But that's not the Bill - that's just one person's intepretation - who cares about that and who knows how the Police will intepret the final legislation?

Here is a link to the UK.gov. internet site which has the real bill - read this!!!

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Johnny BoomBoom]

Like DrDrill said, the Scottish parliament has much better things to worry about than us mere musicians! Fortunately for the moment, north of the border, we seem to have got this one right!

 

[CS]

The problem is very simple-the move to requiring all venues have a license for live music will not create an environment where live music is encouraged and will increase (as supposedly intended).

I say no license please, venues can have the occaisonal bands without a major commitment, duos can continue or expand to trios and quartets in their 'local' and bands can approach more venues.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by CS
The problem is very simple-the move to requiring all venues have a license for live music will not create an environment where live music is encouraged and will increase (as supposedly intended).

That's right - I don't think we should lose sight of this in all the detail - it is going to be very bad for live music in England and Wales and every single Jazz musician (pros, semi-pro and even just amateurs/fans) I've met over the last few months is talking about this and is very depressed about it!!

 

[Johnny BoomBoom]

Although north of the border we're not directly affected by this (yet!), I agree with you that this move is a bad idea. I haven't read the bill in it's entirety, but what I have gathered about it form other sources(including the MU - as I'm a member) is that this bill will end up doing the opposite of what it alledges it intends!

I believe that it will see a decline in live music - the type of live music performed by people of all skill level with all sorts of instruments!

This will indeed be bad for musicians all over the country!