Upcoming NAD - Mesa Subway WD-800

[Matty Koff]

My amp has been on the fritz with no easy way to fix and well outside of warranty..also a discontinued design that flopped pretty hard.

Fortunately, I have a cool and supportive family that helped me out on the purchase of a WD-800. The order was placed tonight.. and I when it does get here, I won't actually be able to plug it into my cab or hear it in the mix until Sunday. Kind of hopeful there's no concern with using the DI with no speaker connected.. going to read very carefully into that before I even try it.

I'm excited though, given the love the Subway series seems to get on these forums. I hope I gel with it and that it plays nice with my Avatar b410.

I've been borrowing a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 and frankly.. that is one beast of an amp. I've been loving it and was seriously considering buying it if possible, or sourcing a used one.. but as long as I like this amp when it shows up I am honestly more comfortable with a valid warranty. It was comforting watching videos the Subway D-800 and D-800+ being hand manufactured. There's also a sense of comfort that this forum is frequented by a Mesa Boogie development engineer.

I'm not saying anything anybody is likely to not already know here, but without taking tone into consideration there's a lot to love about this amp, with the HPF, parametric mid EQ, active/passive switch.. mic or line level DI with pre/post EQ switch and ground/lift. Some gritty tube overdrive.

I'll update this post when I get to play with it.. I'm inclined to believe it's going to be a keeper, though I wish I could've played through one and perhaps a D-800+ beforehand.. but that's just not happening in my area. Wish me luck. Hopeful I decide I like it.. because frankly, being a USA based product I think it's liable to last me longer than the 5 years my current amp did.. which I ultimately should've done more shopping around in the first place.

 

[mmbongo]

Congrats!

And any of the Mesa Subway amps are designed to work fine with no speaker connected.

 

[agedhorse]

I've been borrowing a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 and frankly.. that is one beast of an amp. I've been loving it and was seriously considering buying it if possible, or sourcing a used one.. but as long as I like this amp when it shows up I am honestly more comfortable with a valid warranty. It was comforting watching videos the Subway D-800 and D-800+ being hand manufactured. There's also a sense of comfort that this forum is frequented by a Mesa Boogie development engineer.

I also designed the Shuttle series, so you aren't missing anything

 

[Matty Koff]

I also designed the Shuttle series, so you aren't missing anything

The loaner I'm using has been an absolute joy to play. Hope I enjoy the Mesa as much. Your presence on talkbass definitely helped to encourage the purchase. I hope I never have to bug you about either. But thank you for what you do for us here.

 

[shadven]

I bought one about 10 months ago. I love it and I gig with it fairly often. But, I am an Ampeg tube guy (Marshall and Fender tubes too). So, I don’t like tone quite as much as my favorite Ampegs (V4B and vintage B-15), but the WD-800 sounds great and you have a lot of control. The HPF is awesome!! On loud gigs on boomy stages it is a god send! I can’t sing the HPF praises enough! I also bought the Subway 2x15 cab (55 lbs) and it is almost as loud as my SVT with 8x10 cab. I’ve rocked some big outdoor stages with that rig.

 

[Matty Koff]

So, I began RTFM for the WD800 and find myself confused about the capability of the amp as a DI box with no speaker load.

I stumbled upon this

"WARNING: Always make sure proper load is connected before operating the amplifier. Failure to do so could pose a shock hazard and may result in damage to the amplifier."

Then as I made my way down to the Rear Panel I found this line which answered a question for me but also threw me for a bit of a loop -

"It is not necessary to have a speaker connected to the amp when using headphones, it is completely safe to operate the amp without a speaker load."

I can't tell if this statement is saying that it's safe to operate the amp without a speaker load or if it's safe to operate the amp without a speaker load provided headphones are connected. It kind of says both, which contradicts the warning provided at the beginning of the manual.

The XLR or Direct Out description makes no statements about speaker load.

I see agedhorse's like on mmmbongo's statement.. which would indicate he knows what he's talking about. But after reading the manual I'd like like to double check and be absolutely certain before I do something stupid at home.

So, could someone please verify - Am I safe to use the xlr out only with no speaker load and no headphones connected and the master volume off? Or would using the headphones into the headphone jack on the amp be the only way to safely operate the amp without a connected speaker load?

Not a huge deal if not.. my 15w Fender Rumble sounds pretty good mic'd up.. and honestly it isn't a big deal to get a DI pedal for recording at home if plugging straight into my interface doesn't please me. I do want to be certain what I can and can't do with the amp however. I intend to make it last awhile.

 

[dbase]

The amp has an excellent warranty so feel free to put it thru it's paces... I got my WD800 right out of the box and had to gig that night... Plugged it into my cabs (2x12) without having a chance to figure out the control settings, the sound guy plugged into the amps DI out and set the DI switches and I played a set. Then to make sure the amp got a workout, I let the next band use it which was Metal ... The amp performed flawlessly. Not much you can do to hurt this amp except maybe running over it with a truck.

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, there is no problem operating any Subway amp without a load.

The safety warning is a general warning, and a proper load for the Subway series is no load all the way down to 2 ohms.

 

[Matty Koff]

Awesome. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Sorry for the doubts mmbongo. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Matty Koff]

The Amp arrived yesterday morning. This is my first Mesa/Boogie product ever in like 25+ years of stringed instruments.. and quite frankly the packaging was impressive. Brown envelope holding the power cable. The tote bag.. nice and roomy inside. The metal surface of the amp just looks and feels good to my eye. It's not the smallest class D amp but it's lightweight enough to barely notice you're picking it up or carrying it. The switches are all firm and sturdy. The knobs turn easily and smoothly. Then there's the tag that has at least the first initial of each person who worked on a particular component of the amp.

First thing I did was plug headphones into it. The headphone jack is a little noisy with the treble at flat or above. Nothing too out of the ordinary just a speaker hiss. Kind of similar to my little Fender 15w practice amp the headphone jack seems to add some voicing/coloring to the tone. Not a big deal at all.. it's handy to have the headphone jack if I need to play quietly and don't feel like plugging into an interface.

Running the xlr out to my interface, the amp was noiseless until I started playing. No hissing like I was getting from the headphone jack on the amp. I also ran my bass straight into the amp rather than my pedalboard so I'll have to double check the headphone jack this way too and make sure my pedalboard wasn't adding to it.

I flipped the switch to active -10db cut, running my Sire P7 through it.. and as I tend to EQ at the bass I set all the EQ controls on the amp to flat. Running Post-EQ into my interface trying to aim for any tube breakup even at mic level was peaking/clipping the input signal to my audio interface and causing some serious distortion in my headphones which were connected to the interface. I took a minute to noodle with the heavily distorted bass signal coming from my interface. Honestly sounded better than some distortion pedals I've used in the past.

When I lowered the input gain to a level that wasn't causing my interface to peak to the point of constant clipping, as well as dialing it down a bit with the eq on my bass, frankly the amp sounds great. I thought about recording a simple noodling session but that's more effort than I feel like putting into it at the moment.

Frankly, amp at flat, EQ'ing using the pre-amp on my bass.. I was right at home with the tone. It suits me. I'd be surprised if this thing didn't sound great through my speaker cabinet. I'll probably attempt playing my P7 through it with the active pre-amp bypassed, and with the active/passive switch on the amp set to passive and start messing around with different EQ settings on the amp later today even though I'm still limited to headphones or xlr out.

Honestly.. I'm not going to say it sounds "better" than the shuttle 6.0 I was borrowing. It sounds different. And it sounds good. Both sound better to me than the amp I was using for 5 years prior. The construction seems top notch.. the warranty is comforting and I feel like the WD800 will still be running strong for a decade or more down the road with servicing options available should I need it.


My band has decided that as long as none of us have any cold/flu symptoms that we're going to get together tomorrow. What it does for our sanity is worth it apparently. I'll take at least one picture of it enjoying it's place in the jam spot. I'm going to rattle my drummer's house with this thing plugged into my 4 ohm 4x10 and I can't wait.

I don't feel like I'll have a need to get this wordy after plugging it into my cabinet tomorrow and hearing it in the band's monitor mix. But my prediction is I'll love it and let you guys know how much at least, with a pic.

Even then.. I'll mostly be using the xlr out until the band is ready to start gigging, likely using Post-EQ for our live improv/rehearsal and Pre-EQ for when we start multi-tracking.

Can't help but appreciate the number of awesome features in this series of amps.

It'd be nice to have some cabinet's also sporting the Mesa Engineering logo provided I have a good time with this thing through a cabinet to begin with. But I'd be tempted to check into Barefaced or Fearful/greenboy cabs for that kind of dough. Frankly I've been eyeballing the PJB c4's due to their weight and available financing options to me. But my 65lb 4x10 has been good to me, was a great deal, and so far has sounded decent with any amp I've plugged into it.

I'll update this thread one more time when I get home tomorrow after hearing it through my cab. Hopefully I won't type another novel lol.

 

[Matty Koff]

Ok, with a long winded first reaction out of the way.. and this time around playing with my P7's EQ bypassed..and then using some of the EQ knob templates in the manual.. especially getting to the last example...

YUM. Sounds good. And that's still using the xlr out into my humble Zoom r16 into a pair of cans. I'm going to have to play around more with the r16 as an interface vs being a stand alone recorder to see about getting levels right as the peak lights on the interface are lighting up. Not staying on but quick flashes as I pluck. I'm going to have to hear this thing through my cab to hear what's tube overdrive and what is clipping via the interface, or maybe I can get a better idea by using it as a stand alone. I'm guessing it will be a different experience plugging into my drummer's much closer to professional recording setup.

Even so.. backing the input gain down, not concerned with overdrive.. with a passive bass I'm enjoying the EQ options a lot more than the amp it replaced using the same setup.

Anyway.. I've familiarized myself a bit more since my last post.. have an idea it's going to sound pretty good through my actual cabinet.. and will leave an even shorter update after doing so.. likely followed by ordering the footswitch for it once I ultimately decide it's a keeper.. which it's seeming like.

Sorry for the bump in the thread and the long winded inital reaction above. Short story so far is that it seems like a killer amp.

*edit* just dawned on me to reference aiming for tube break up just using the headphone out jack rather than my interface just to give myself an idea what I should expect. Not worth a 3rd post today though so I'll have it all figured out tomorrow.

 

[agedhorse]

To control the peak light on your Zoom interface, be sure to turn the input sensitivity control down on the interface's channel that you are using for bass. There should be plenty of range available.

Pedals and any active electronics before the amp will add to the noise present, and it will always be worse with high gain or overdrive operation.

Headphones just allow you to hear the noise more effectively as they play directly into your ears.

 

[Matty Koff]

To control the peak light on your Zoom interface, be sure to turn the input sensitivity control down on the interface's channel that you are using for bass. There should be plenty of range available.

Pedals and any active electronics before the amp will add to the noise present, and it will always be worse with high gain or overdrive operation.

Headphones just allow you to hear the noise more effectively as they play directly into your ears.

I think I've never pushed my R-16 as hard as I might be by trying to get some tube break up from the WD-800. My previous amp had a hybrid tube pre using one tube but I never saw anything from the manufacturer about the clip light other than to set the input gain to just below where it lights up. Not sure if that applies to their hybrid tube pre's but.. it had a clip light... the WD800 has an overdrive light, and my best guess it gets away with much higher input gain levels and I can only reduce the volume of the xlr out on the WD-800 so far to accomodate.


Headphone jack speaker hiss - I have to double check but I'm pretty sure even my rumble 15 hisses with headphones plugged into it where it doesn't through the speaker unless I crank the treble. I haven't ruled it out yet and will shortly, but I doubt it's the pedalboard. The treble EQ on my Sire had no effect on the hiss. My pedals were off. No buzzing or lack of signal to indicate any contact issues between pedals. Only the treble EQ on the amp reduced it, but I had to turn it all the way down. Running xlr to the zoom, and plugging the headphones into the zoom, there is a slight almost unnoticeable speaker hiss but it's unaffected by the any EQ'ing on the amp.. I'm pretty sure I'd hear it if there was no input connected to the R-16. That being said next time I enter the woodshed, if it's hissing I'll also remind myself to flip the ground/lift switch just to be sure.

It could be the $50 Audio Technica cans I use at home. Maybe I'll bring my DT 770M's home tomorrow and test that theory too, but unless experience tells you otherwise I don't feel like it's anything out of the ordinary, and based on the xlr out signal, I doubt i'll hear any hissing from my cabinet either. Not a big deal at all.. If I ever use the headphone jack it will be because it's a quicker method of quiet practice.

As far as the R-16 input gain, it has rotary knobs at the top of each input channel marked "Line" at 7 or 8 o'clock and it stops at about 4 or 5 o'clock. So I turn them all the way down when running direct, and anywhere between 50-75% if using a mic depending on the volume coming from the speaker. Maybe less if I was using something that required phantom power. Setting the knob to line would provide no signal for say an SM-57. It's an impressive for the price, but budget recording solution that I use for remembering or sharing ideas mostly and it's not a huge deal if I can't push the tube pre in the amp for grit in that situation. I was getting some enjoyable tones even with the input gain on the amp lowered a bit, and I could get by plugging directly into my interface or mic'ing my Rumble 15w at home.

Tomorrow I'll be plugging into a Midas M32, which is an entirely different beast that afaict that handles gain staging much differently. I think I want to try mic'ing my cabinet and running that to the board and into my monitor mix, while also sending the board a mic level pre-eq signal so me and the "studio" owner can potentially play with tone shaping and effects via DAW, and have a mostly stable signal where we can blend or choose the best of the two.

Anyway, agedhorse, I have some fiddling to do yet before I can point fingers at any one piece of gear. please don't let my written rambling keep you from anything you'd rather be doing. Unless it's unheard of for the headphone jack alone to produce some hiss and it needs a repair, it really isn't an issue to me. I kind of do wish there was an attenuation knob for the xlr out.. but I think it's going to play differently with a more serious piece of recording kit as opposed to my budget recording solution that I could always just plug mics into. It could be a matter of cutting some EQ to record that tubey goodness via the R-16 as well.

I'm so looking forward to hearing this thing through my cabinet and in the mix tomorrow. I have good feels.

 

[agedhorse]

You need to listen to what I am saying, because your issue of your interface overload is due to user error and has nothing to do with the amp. The same situation exists with the M-32, so understanding this concept applies to other inputs also.

Turn the gain control down on your interface until the clip light stops flashing. That's all there is to this. That's the reason why Zoom put the control on the interface, so use it.

As far as the headphones go, that's pretty normal. I have already explained why.

 

[Matty Koff]

You need to listen to what I am saying, because your issue of your interface overload is due to user error and has nothing to do with the amp. The same situation exists with the M-32, so understanding this concept applies to other inputs also.

Turn the gain control down on your interface until the clip light stops flashing. That's all there is to this. That's the reason why Zoom put the control on the interface, so use it.

As far as the headphones go, that's pretty normal. I have already explained why.

Sir, as I stated above, the gain controls for the input I'm plugged into on the interface are turned all the way down. It's not my first rodeo. It's just that the input gain on the AMP, at least Post-EQ, turned up passed a certain point is still too loud even so for my particular interface. The same thing would happen if cranked the input gain on my old amp from what was a usable level.. I just didn't because it wasn't designed like the WD800 for overdrive.

I've recorded several different instruments including drumkits with this thing.

Pic Incoming. Channel two is the input being used.

Pardon the dirt.. I've owned it for a long time.

The amp is the only new piece of gear in the room. And like I said.. it's not a big deal. It's just a description of my experience. Not a plea for help or something I'm claiming needs fixing. Likely a non issue when I plug into an interface that is roughly 14x the cost of the zoom, otherwise available for less than half that cost if someone chose an X32 instead. I'll learn about that tomorrow. You can adjust the gain on the M32 to like -12 dB. It's different.

It has specific line level inputs vs the combo line/mic inputs of the zoom. Seriously.. the gain can not be lowered any further.

 

[Matty Koff]

Further reference.. it's when the amp is set to something like this, sending a mic level signal from the amp, with the Sire P7's EQ bypassed i.e. passive mode, minus the master volume since no load is connected and it doesn't effect the xlr output. A line out attenuator, as opposed to a mic/line level switch, would allow for further reduction of the xlr signal, which would let me crank the input gain all day with the zoom. But like I said.. it's not a huge deal. I'm pretty sure we can get around this with the m32 and crank the input gain on the amp all day, if I even choose to use a Post-EQ signal as opposed to a mic in front of my cabinet. We'll see tomorrow.

 

[agedhorse]

Because this is the first complaint of this sort on any oft he Subway products (they all share similar signal routing and levels post eq), I looked into this farther to see what else might be going on. When overdriving the WD-800, I took my benchmark unit and ran some test signals on the bench, I can achieve a maximum level that is 6dB below standard line level, which falls into the hot mic level range.

I asked another engineer who is more familiar with the recording equipment side of things and he provided an interesting bit of information that I had not considered, since I generally work with more gear that's intended for more professional applications. It appears that when using the mic input jacks (XLR section of the combi-con jack) the mic gain is limited and is not capable of hot mic signals like some DI's, kick drum mics, bass mics, guitar mics, etc. It's limited to about -20 dBu with the gain control fully counter-clockwise, whereas virtually all mic inputs on consoles have no problem with 0dbu and all pro consoles can easily handle +4dBu with plenty of headroom.

If you use the 1/4" LINE input section of the combi-con jack, that input has a gain range that can handle a +4dBu signal and has enough gain to handle -20dBu signals as well. If you would like to record post eq with overdrive, than an XLR female to 1/4" TRS male cable will allow you to access the lower sensitivity gain range on your interface. Alternatively, a 20dB XLR balanced pad will work in line with the DI cable to the mic input.

Why did zoom do it this way? I frankly have no idea, since almost every console built in the last 30+ years have plenty of gain range (typically -50dBu to +4dBu with at least 12dB of headroom). It's not that I didn't believe you, I just didn't understand what you were saying and it didn't make sense. Turns out that it's due to some serious limitations within the interface itself, that can not handle professional signal levels due to inadequate gain range of the mic pre.

There will be no problem with the M-32 (or the X-32) as those preamps have adequate gain range and have a pad available as well (all accessible through the input menu).

 

[Matty Koff]

Because this is the first complaint of this sort on any oft he Subway products (they all share similar signal routing and levels post eq), I looked into this farther to see what else might be going on. When overdriving the WD-800, I took my benchmark unit and ran some test signals on the bench, I can achieve a maximum level that is 6dB below standard line level, which falls into the hot mic level range.

I asked another engineer who is more familiar with the recording equipment side of things and he provided an interesting bit of information that I had not considered, since I generally work with more gear that's intended for more professional applications. It appears that when using the mic input jacks (XLR section of the combi-con jack) the mic gain is limited and is not capable of hot mic signals like some DI's, kick drum mics, bass mics, guitar mics, etc. It's limited to about -20 dBu with the gain control fully counter-clockwise, whereas virtually all mic inputs on consoles have no problem with 0dbu and all pro consoles can easily handle +4dBu with plenty of headroom.

If you use the 1/4" LINE input section of the combi-con jack, that input has a gain range that can handle a +4dBu signal and has enough gain to handle -20dBu signals as well. If you would like to record post eq with overdrive, than an XLR female to 1/4" TRS male cable will allow you to access the lower sensitivity gain range on your interface. Alternatively, a 20dB XLR balanced pad will work in line with the DI cable to the mic input.

Why did zoom do it this way? I frankly have no idea, since almost every console built in the last 30+ years have plenty of gain range (typically -50dBu to +4dBu with at least 12dB of headroom). It's not that I didn't believe you, I just didn't understand what you were saying and it didn't make sense. Turns out that it's due to some serious limitations within the interface itself, that can not handle professional signal levels due to inadequate gain range of the mic pre.

There will be no problem with the M-32 (or the X-32) as those preamps have adequate gain range and have a pad available as well (all accessible through the input menu).

I think zoom was mostly concerned about manufacturing cost and saving space being a compact, easy to move around 16 track, 8 input recording interface/standalone recorder. I'll see about getting an XLR to 1/4th adapter and see if it has any effect.. although I'll have to double check on whether I'd need TS or TRS, as the inputs on the zoom are combo xlr-1/4th and I've only ever used the 1/4th inputs to plug an instrument cable into the interface.. Not to discredit you or anything, just to enhance my own personal understanding.

I do appreciate that you guys are talking about me over there and take such an interest in the experiences of your customers and that you're an active member of this community. I can understand where maybe you missed me explaining the gain knobs buried in my earlier wall of text. I tried to shorten my response several times for everybody's sake to no avail. I am no expert in studio equipment by any means but I know enough to have fun with it.

I'll let you know what happens when I try an xlr to 1/4th adapter, and how it goes with the M32 tomorrow.

 

[agedhorse]

It shouldn't matter if it's TRS or TS, the ring can float or connect to the sleeve however the Zoom is set up, the DI's send can work with any of these connections.

What's puzzling is that it doesn't save any money to do it the way they did.

 

[Matty Koff]

It shouldn't matter if it's TRS or TS, the ring can float or connect to the sleeve however the Zoom is set up, the DI's send can work with any of these connections.

What's puzzling is that it doesn't save any money to do it the way they did.

Haha all I know for sure is at $350 or $300 or whatever it is I paid for the R-16 I'm not really complaining. I'd love to get my hands on an X32, but don't really need it, nor am i experienced enough to justify it. There are other ways to tackle the situation with the zoom and it sounds pretty good for what it is. Step up from cell phones and old cheap tape recorders for certain.

Speaking of I should take an alcohol wipe to that thing. >.<