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Double Bass Upping my game learning jazz Piano & Open Studio

Huy Nguyen

Official Forum Flunkee
Supporting Member
Mar 16, 2004
6,521
2,103
Richmond, CA
So I took advantage of the Black Friday deal OS had a while back and upping my game. I had some classical piano chops but in the end all i really wanted was to play melodies on the RH and comp with the LH. Their approach is really mellow and I think their "group practice" sessions are quiet smart - even innovative.

And the content is top notch. Holy crap the McBridge course (Your Sound is your Signature) is probably THE BEST jazz bass course I have ever seen. He gives away some really juicy theoretical advice and such. The insiders line on how he plays, what he's thinking both from a tactical approach to a tune (harmony), and feel. He's not a bad pianist either. Both him and the Ron Carter stuff are well done. But it's piano central over there! And Adam Maness is great but Peter Martin is a beast!

Anyhoo all the RC/CMB stuff has rubbed off on me and it didn't dawn on me that I could be more strategic about the bass notes I play (this is what RC has been talking about a lot lately). Why not just form a smooth arc'ing bassline but one that doesn't repeat the melody note in the head? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Highly recommend the course if someone is looking to build some piano chops. The community is lovely and mellow.

Side note: all the RC stuff (including some of the books he sells off his site) do seem very very expensive for what you're getting but the simplistic method books (like the Ray Brown book) is starting to make sense to me. Yes.... that's all there is in a way. It is that simple but the devil seems to be hidden way in the details.

Just thought I'd share.
 
Playing piano is a great way to put the bass in perspective. You get to hear (and get your hands on) the entire spectrum of sound and range, and it really opens up the big picture perspective. I had a premonition of this back when I was at Berklee in 1984 and hearing all these great pianists. I was a guitar student then and couldn’t afford to stay (my family had no $$ and I was working multiple jobs while trying to pay for school),but hearing what the piano could do led me to switch instruments when I came back to Louisville to study theory and composition. It turned out to be a life changing move.

The two voice (outer voices) counterpoint perspective is also incredibly important. In my graduate counterpoint class, my professor had me analyze every prelude and fugue in the WTC and then write imitating various examples. It opened up my brain to counterpoint like a giant can opener. I was studying the Omni book at the same time on the side, and quickly came to understand that there was little harmonic difference between the two styles, and that in Bach’s writing, the instances of the outer voices coinciding on a single note was usually reserved for cadences, where the tension was momentarily released. The rest of the time, the outer voices provide the harmonic framework, and when they pass through a unison or octave, it really thins out the texture even if both lines make perfect sense on their own.

I was still 10-12 years away from taking up the bass at that time, but that basic counterpoint lesson stuck and I’m still really sensitive to that paradigm. Practicing the 2 part inventions and sinfonias, especially really slowly, is a great way to bring this into focus and doesn’t require the kinds of piano chops that the WTC does.

I’d love to hear more about the CMB course if you have the time.
 
Playing piano is a great way to put the bass in perspective. You get to hear (and get your hands on) the entire spectrum of sound and range, and it really opens up the big picture perspective. I had a premonition of this back when I was at Berklee in 1984 and hearing all these great pianists. I was a guitar student then and couldn’t afford to stay (my family had no $$ and I was working multiple jobs while trying to pay for school),but hearing what the piano could do led me to switch instruments when I came back to Louisville to study theory and composition. It turned out to be a life changing move.

The two voice (outer voices) counterpoint perspective is also incredibly important. In my graduate counterpoint class, my professor had me analyze every prelude and fugue in the WTC and then write imitating various examples. It opened up my brain to counterpoint like a giant can opener. I was studying the Omni book at the same time on the side, and quickly came to understand that there was little harmonic difference between the two styles, and that in Bach’s writing, the instances of the outer voices coinciding on a single note was usually reserved for cadences, where the tension was momentarily released. The rest of the time, the outer voices provide the harmonic framework, and when they pass through a unison or octave, it really thins out the texture even if both lines make perfect sense on their own.

I was still 10-12 years away from taking up the bass at that time, but that basic counterpoint lesson stuck and I’m still really sensitive to that paradigm. Practicing the 2 part inventions and sinfonias, especially really slowly, is a great way to bring this into focus and doesn’t require the kinds of piano chops that the WTC does.

I’d love to hear more about the CMB course if you have the time.
I’ve also got the Christian McBride course; it was my initial plunge into the online bass course world. It’s not great on technical exercises to study and practice, but just hearing him talk and play is so inspiring that it doesn’t matter!
 
I’ve also got the Christian McBride course; it was my initial plunge into the online bass course world. It’s not great on technical exercises to study and practice, but just hearing him talk and play is so inspiring that it doesn’t matter!
It's not supposed to be, it's a level 4 of 4 course (advanced players). If you want that stuff, look at his other course which is level 3. If you need more, i'd look at all the other Bob DeBoo courses there - they seem solid. Also do not overlook the Group Practice Sessions (even in the CMB courses) that Bob leads as he walks you through actual practice.

Playing piano is a great way to put the bass in perspective. You get to hear (and get your hands on) the entire spectrum of sound and range, and it really opens up the big picture perspective. I had a premonition of this back when I was at Berklee in 1984 and hearing all these great pianists. I was a guitar student then and couldn’t afford to stay (my family had no $$ and I was working multiple jobs while trying to pay for school),but hearing what the piano could do led me to switch instruments when I came back to Louisville to study theory and composition. It turned out to be a life changing move.

The two voice (outer voices) counterpoint perspective is also incredibly important. In my graduate counterpoint class, my professor had me analyze every prelude and fugue in the WTC and then write imitating various examples. It opened up my brain to counterpoint like a giant can opener. I was studying the Omni book at the same time on the side, and quickly came to understand that there was little harmonic difference between the two styles, and that in Bach’s writing, the instances of the outer voices coinciding on a single note was usually reserved for cadences, where the tension was momentarily released. The rest of the time, the outer voices provide the harmonic framework, and when they pass through a unison or octave, it really thins out the texture even if both lines make perfect sense on their own.

I was still 10-12 years away from taking up the bass at that time, but that basic counterpoint lesson stuck and I’m still really sensitive to that paradigm. Practicing the 2 part inventions and sinfonias, especially really slowly, is a great way to bring this into focus and doesn’t require the kinds of piano chops that the WTC does.

I’d love to hear more about the CMB course if you have the time.

Yeah in hindsight I wish someone just smacked me upside the head and made me work on piano chops. Would've saved a lot of time/frustration since I already had some skill already. CMB literally does that in the Your Sound Is Your Signature (YSIYS) course. Also in his prior course he tells you that all the top flight bassists play piano. Say no more Christian.

Even just a few weeks into I see the massive benefits. It places you in the harmony and gives you sense of how to compliment the comper/signer and everything else going on. That's what CMB does... he's providing the missing link in the chain. He gives you a glimpse into why he plays so many roots and when he deviates, tells you exactly why he does it and where in the harmony does his note sit. Ron Carter is also doing the same but I feel like he's hinting at it. CMB just tells you to your face how it is. Now given that RC is a huge influence on CMB, it requires going back to RC's material and going through it deeply and not taking it for granted.

I find in some ways RC is kinda mystical in the way he teaches. BTW RC's book on Drops and Diggety-Bop is a freaking goldmine. Again, it's not long but the concepts buried in it are endless. Rhythmic figures, intetional targets, etc etc. What I have gleaned from listening to RC in what he's been talking about since the start of the Pandemic is that Mr Carter approaches the music in an extremely holistic fashion - more than I can appreciate. As if everything is improvised but extremely deliberate. As if every note was intended and there was 0% jive. It gives me a different perspective on the Ray Brown and RC method books. They put those basic scales into those books for a reason. And a big one yet I think most of us gloss it over.

As for CMB and the YSIYS course, it's kinda like the pro-level course I've always wanted - esp coming from an now-arguable bass living legend. He covers everything from:
* His personal development, even some shortcomings. His influences that formed his worldview on how bass is played.
* Higher level advance ranging on different play styles, two feel, walking, playing fast, his approach to arco and when he uses it/why
* How to hook up with a drummer or pianist. There is several sessions where he's with Carl Allen and they talk about the interaction between bass & drums. For piano he sits at the piano and walks you through his finding the appriopriate notes based on what the piano voicing is chosen. whut?
* Musicianship stuff: importance of keeping gigs through playing roots, how to keep a gig, how to lose a gig
* Inside game: he even has sessions where he's leading a listening session showing you what he's hearing and what he's paying attention to. What he has studied in the past when it comes to Ray Brown and such.

Keep in mind this course compliments his prior course (Fundamentals of Jazz Bass). Even in that prior course, there's sprinkling of pro-level tidbits. Ex: advice on learning piano is in the prior course. In a way they're both overviews of jazz bass but I would consider FOJB as the 101 vs. YSIYS is the 201 level course. But it you take your years to master both obviously.

Both are worthy of the price of admission. And then the RC course well that one kinda runs the gamut but for me I think you need some chops already to really appreciate what RC has to say. Regardless, both offer their worldview and it's important to keep that in mind. But I think RC's legacy in the music is gigantic and would be foolish to overlook the deets of what he has to say. My $.02 on that.

Whatever the cost of admission is for both CMB courses is worth it to me. I wish I had this years ago bc CMB is such a great role model and he tells you what to expect if you wanna play at an advanced/pro level. I think there's something for everybody in it. After watch it, i realize how much I skipped over. ugh. humbling. Time to get my ass back into the shed.
 
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I played piano in my high school jazz band many years ago after putting my poor piano teacher through much frustration. I had no chops for soloing but understood chord symbols and could comp reasonably well. It helped a lot with reading music and listening. Some keyboard knowledge is definitely good for bass players. It helps with the big picture. One thing I have to say, however, is it doesn't necessarily work the other way. I've played with too many clueless(for lack of a better word) keyboard players over the years to assume too much. (:
 
I played piano in my high school jazz band many years ago after putting my poor piano teacher through much frustration. I had no chops for soloing but understood chord symbols and could comp reasonably well. It helped a lot with reading music and listening. Some keyboard knowledge is definitely good for bass players. It helps with the big picture. One thing I have to say, however, is it doesn't necessarily work the other way. I've played with too many clueless(for lack of a better word) keyboard players over the years to assume too much. :)
The OpenStudio community is actually quite good at the latter. There is a lot of reverence for the bass role and they don't take it for granted. They even encourage the pianists to visit the aforementioned bass courses. The "You'll Hear It" Podcast which is hosted by the same guys have hosted Ron Carter twice and have deep respect for the bass. Peter Martin (the CEO of OpenStudio) is also one of CMB's main pianists currently and a member of Insight Straight.
 
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I've gotten a lot out of OS's one-off/single-concept videos, for both bass and piano. I haven't gone through any of the full courses, though. What are you working through on the piano side?
I did the
- beginning of their Introductory Piano Pathway (Jazz Piano Jumpstart, Jazz Piano for Beginners). Just started with Jazz Chords for Beginners.
- Vol 2 Beg: LH Voicings - halfway through
- Vol 1 Beg: Soloing - just started
- Pentatonics - just started

The key thing with this stuff isn't just the material but also the approach and how they teach it in terms of feel & technique. Compared to the couple private jazz piano lessons I once had, I'm getting a lot more of the technique related stuff I wanted to look at technical aspects. Love that Peter Martin is a top flight pro. I know the approach is solid and they don't go too fast for me. AT least I stop and pause and work things out slowly.
 
Playing piano is a great way to put the bass in perspective. You get to hear (and get your hands on) the entire spectrum of sound and range, and it really opens up the big picture perspective. I had a premonition of this back when I was at Berklee in 1984 and hearing all these great pianists. I was a guitar student then and couldn’t afford to stay (my family had no $$ and I was working multiple jobs while trying to pay for school),but hearing what the piano could do led me to switch instruments when I came back to Louisville to study theory and composition. It turned out to be a life changing move.

The two voice (outer voices) counterpoint perspective is also incredibly important. In my graduate counterpoint class, my professor had me analyze every prelude and fugue in the WTC and then write imitating various examples. It opened up my brain to counterpoint like a giant can opener. I was studying the Omni book at the same time on the side, and quickly came to understand that there was little harmonic difference between the two styles, and that in Bach’s writing, the instances of the outer voices coinciding on a single note was usually reserved for cadences, where the tension was momentarily released. The rest of the time, the outer voices provide the harmonic framework, and when they pass through a unison or octave, it really thins out the texture even if both lines make perfect sense on their own.

I was still 10-12 years away from taking up the bass at that time, but that basic counterpoint lesson stuck and I’m still really sensitive to that paradigm. Practicing the 2 part inventions and sinfonias, especially really slowly, is a great way to bring this into focus and doesn’t require the kinds of piano chops that the WTC does.

I’d love to hear more about the CMB course if you have the time.
Well.....it's been a minute! Decided to see what's up with TB and I spotted this thread. After keeping a crappy keyboard for years just to maybe figure out something in an arrangement, Sara and I got a beautiful Williams symphony Digital piano. Always wanted to learn the actual intro to "So What" man what Bill Evans plays is so harmonically rich and cool. Been spending time learning to play Blue and Green, A child is Born......on and on; rootless chords! the amazing amount of independence it takes to actually play something at a mediocre level. All the things my piano pals talk about and do. Actually gaining some facility although, will never be at a level to actually play out. Strange how playing piano informs bass playing. Can't quite believe it's taken me so long to start to get serious about piano. Look forward to hearing more about these courses that HDiddy has been taking. Music takes a lifetime!
 
Uhhhhhh..... so.... I am gonna admit my time feel sucks. After 20 years of bass and many years before that, only now i realize my timefeel sucks. No, not when I'm walking lines as the pulse is very clear but for ages I have struggled with the question, "Why do I suck?" when it comes to soloing. I record myself, sounds great while playing, but sounds like total ass on playback. I even did Mike Longo's Rhythmic Pile thing and that only marginally helped. I took courses on odd meters and yeah I can play cross rhythms but i still sucked. I even took bebop heads and learned bebop language and guess what? I still sucked. Why?!?



And then I peeked into some of the material they had on rhythm. And dear god Peter Martin gave me the answer. There is no bounce to my soloing. There is no clave like pulse. The moment I feel into that and try to introduce that into my playing, immediately, I sucked less. Never had anyone articulate it in this way. Yes there are wonderful courses at OpenStudio on bass and other instruments, but the secret goldmine of jazz wisdom lies in Peter Martin's "Jazz Piano Method" which has an endless amount of content. Giving you the inside scoop on the process of jazz muscianship and pro-level excellence coming from a top flight pianist (and I think he won the Monk Competition in his younger days).

So this is what I'm shedding and at least for this guy, OS is gave me a big piece of the puzzle that I'd been missing.
 
Well.....it's been a minute! Decided to see what's up with TB and I spotted this thread. After keeping a crappy keyboard for years just to maybe figure out something in an arrangement, Sara and I got a beautiful Williams symphony Digital piano. Always wanted to learn the actual intro to "So What" man what Bill Evans plays is so harmonically rich and cool. Been spending time learning to play Blue and Green, A child is Born......on and on; rootless chords! the amazing amount of independence it takes to actually play something at a mediocre level. All the things my piano pals talk about and do. Actually gaining some facility although, will never be at a level to actually play out. Strange how playing piano informs bass playing. Can't quite believe it's taken me so long to start to get serious about piano. Look forward to hearing more about these courses that HDiddy has been taking. Music takes a lifetime!
So tell me a bit more about these o line courses. I'm looking to develop my right/left hand independence and become at least somewhat adept at playing some, not all of the American songbook, jazz standards. I'm completely aware that there is no "silver bullet" just want to make sure I'm not spinning my wheels.
 
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Uhhhhhh..... so.... I am gonna admit my time feel sucks. After 20 years of bass and many years before that, only now i realize my timefeel sucks. No, not when I'm walking lines as the pulse is very clear but for ages I have struggled with the question, "Why do I suck?" when it comes to soloing. I record myself, sounds great while playing, but sounds like total ass on playback. I even did Mike Longo's Rhythmic Pile thing and that only marginally helped. I took courses on odd meters and yeah I can play cross rhythms but i still sucked. I even took bebop heads and learned bebop language and guess what? I still sucked. Why?!?



And then I peeked into some of the material they had on rhythm. And dear god Peter Martin gave me the answer. There is no bounce to my soloing. There is no clave like pulse. The moment I feel into that and try to introduce that into my playing, immediately, I sucked less. Never had anyone articulate it in this way. Yes there are wonderful courses at OpenStudio on bass and other instruments, but the secret goldmine of jazz wisdom lies in Peter Martin's "Jazz Piano Method" which has an endless amount of content. Giving you the inside scoop on the process of jazz muscianship and pro-level excellence coming from a top flight pianist (and I think he won the Monk Competition in his younger days).

So this is what I'm shedding and at least for this guy, OS is gave me a big piece of the puzzle that I'd been missing.

This is great!
 
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So tell me a bit more about these o line courses. I'm looking to develop my right/left hand independence and become at least somewhat adept at playing some, not all of the American songbook, jazz standards. I'm completely aware that there is no "silver bullet" just want to make sure I'm not spinning my wheels.
Yes, that's basically exactly what i was after. Just enough to hear and play the functional harmony. I will let them explain it in their own words. The courses really focus on learning voicings like this in both hands and finding independence.





Peter Martin is a beast and part of one of McBride's bands. They're really good at breaking things down into their essential elements. I really love the Root+Shell+Pretty approach. Or if i'm doing just LH voicing: Shell (3rd & 7th) + a pretty note (non-chord). So beautifully simple. Slap a 6th here and there for additional color. This is just a sample. They get a little bit into Barry Harris who also has an incredibly simple and beautiful system.

There's more free material if you search for it on Youtube. What's brilliant about their approach is that they don't just give you the concept but they also had "group practice sessions" where you practice with them. So it kinda feels like it's a virtual apprenticeship. And yes, there is no silver bullet and they offer many different approaches up the mountain.
 
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Yes, that's basically exactly what i was after. Just enough to hear and play the functional harmony. I will let them explain it in their own words. The courses really focus on learning voicings like this in both hands and finding independence.





Peter Martin is a beast and part of one of McBride's bands. They're really good at breaking things down into their essential elements. I really love the Root+Shell+Pretty approach. Or if i'm doing just LH voicing: Shell (3rd & 7th) + a pretty note (non-chord). So beautifully simple. Slap a 6th here and there for additional color. This is just a sample. They get a little bit into Barry Harris who also has an incredibly simple and beautiful system.

There's more free material if you search for it on Youtube. What's brilliant about their approach is that they don't just give you the concept but they also had "group practice sessions" where you practice with them. So it kinda feels like it's a virtual apprenticeship. And yes, there is no silver bullet and they offer many different approaches up the mountain.

Thanks so much. Think this is just what I'm looking for.
 
Thanks so much. Think this is just what I'm looking for.
Sure thing. I mean, just that root+shell+pretty or shell+pretty will keep you busy for a long long long long time. I really enjoy doing closed voicings and seeing the notes shift downwards as you go through many of the common progressions.

If you take that as a basic rudiment, do RSP or SP in both hands, LH, RH, and then you can even break it apart and do chord melody in the same manner while avoiding putting any roots on the bottom and then play melodies with the RH. Bang. That's all I really needed. I just play through tunes rubato just to hear the harmony.
 
Yes, that's basically exactly what i was after. Just enough to hear and play the functional harmony. I will let them explain it in their own words. The courses really focus on learning voicings like this in both hands and finding independence.





Peter Martin is a beast and part of one of McBride's bands. They're really good at breaking things down into their essential elements. I really love the Root+Shell+Pretty approach. Or if i'm doing just LH voicing: Shell (3rd & 7th) + a pretty note (non-chord). So beautifully simple. Slap a 6th here and there for additional color. This is just a sample. They get a little bit into Barry Harris who also has an incredibly simple and beautiful system.

There's more free material if you search for it on Youtube. What's brilliant about their approach is that they don't just give you the concept but they also had "group practice sessions" where you practice with them. So it kinda feels like it's a virtual apprenticeship. And yes, there is no silver bullet and they offer many different approaches up the mountain.

Hey....those were great. So, excuse me if this is a dumb question, but are these courses under CMB or is there a website where I can learn more? Obviously these snippets are from You Tube. Is this site where the courses are offered? I'm stoked!
 
Hey....those were great. So, excuse me if this is a dumb question, but are these courses under CMB or is there a website where I can learn more? Obviously these snippets are from You Tube. Is this site where the courses are offered? I'm stoked!
Everything you seek lies here: Open Studio - Become a Better Player. Guaranteed.

I did the jazz piano jumpstart and then branched out from there. Also I’m only paying for the basic subscription. I didn’t do the more expensive pro tier.
 
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Everything you seek lies here: Open Studio - Become a Better Player. Guaranteed.

I did the jazz piano jumpstart and then branched out from there. Also I’m only paying for the basic subscription. I didn’t do the more expensive pro tier.
Thanks much Huy. Hope all is well in your world BTW do you know Larry Dunlop or Ken Miller? I think they're in your neck of the Woods. Ken's claim to fame is that he was first chair bassist at SF State above John Patitucci. Ha
 
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A bit out of the context of the online course and more about actual learning of jazz piano:

Let's acknowledge that learning piano would open the door to a gigantic amount of harmonic concepts and studies that are simply not accessible on the bass.

However, there is only so much time available for daily practice, and sometimes it can be challenging to maintain steady progress on just one instrument. (I've always dismissed the idea because I thought I might spread myself too thin.)

Is there a moment in a player's skill development that calls for it?
Would there be an advantage in learning concepts such as arpeggios, scales, and melodic structures on the piano _before_ applying them to the bass?
What is the typical practice schedule for a bass player who studies piano?