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Double Bass using a wireless

C

CherylTheSinger

Jul 19, 2013
66
13
somewhere in the woods in PA
#1
I am a newbie when it comes to this, so please excuse my lack of knowledge. I am also a newb when it comes to double bass; I will ask my teacher soon. I thought maybe I could get an answer before my next lesson, as it would be helpful to me in the near future to be able to do what I am trying to do.

Sometimes I amplify my double bass. I use Underwood pick-ups which I plug into a 25 foot cable into a LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI Preamp (both recommended by my teacher, works great!). For my electric bass guitar and double bass I own and use an Ampeg BA-115. Sometimes out of necessity I use some nameless guitar/keyboard amp turned down fairly low in volume with the bass cranked up at the school I work at. It even works with that thing haha.

What isn't working is trying to run this through a wireless. For my electric bass guitar running an Audio-technica ATW-R700 through the Ampeg works just fine. Similar settings on this work with a mircrophone for my voice. When I attempt to run it with the double bass and LR Baggs I get no response from the LR Baggs and nothing comes through the amp. If I plug the cable than runs from the pre-amp to the wireless about halfway the pre-amp will turn on, but no sound comes through the bass amp.

Is this just something I shouldn't be combining?
 
#2
Something is amiss. I don't understand what you mean by "I get no response from the LR Baggs." Does that mean when the signal chain is pickup, wireless xmitter, pre-amp, amp that you get no output from the LR Baggs? If so, then the problem would SEEM to be that the pre-amp is receiving no input signal. What do you mean by "about halfway the pre-amp will turn on?" Does that mean in the case where the signal chain is pickup, pre-amp, wireless xmitter, amp? These are all line-level signals and either order of the signal chain should work with the preference being based on avoiding overload conditions and getting reasonable gain. If you're getting no response at all, then I'd say you have a connection error.
 
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#3
drurb said:
Something is amiss. I don't understand what you mean by "I get no response from the LR Baggs." Does that mean when the signal chain is pickup, wireless xmitter, pre-amp, amp that you get no output from the LR Baggs? If so, then the problem would SEEM to be that the pre-amp is receiving no input signal. What do you mean by "about halfway the pre-amp will turn on?" Does that mean in the case where the signal chain is pickup, pre-amp, wireless xmitter, amp? These are all line-level signals and either order of the signal chain should work with the preference being based on avoiding overload conditions and getting reasonable gain. If you're getting no response at all, then I'd say you have a connection error.
Click to expand...

The little light doesn't light up on the LR Baggs when I say "no response." When I say "about halfway," I mean I inserted the cable about halfway in.

I don't know what gain is, except from what I could understand from the manual, that it is not volume.

I plug the wireless box into the wall which turns it on (the lights are on)

I plug my amp into the wall (and when all is said and done I turn it on, light is on, it makes it's amp wooshy noises. Man I hate amp wooshy noises. They are like mucous, but that is another post.)

I plug my cable into my wireless portable box, and the other end of that cable into the bass pick-ups end that I plug the cable into (tabs are stuck into the bridge). I turn on the box, light is green.

I plug a cable that runs from the amp into the output end of the LR Baggs.

I plug a cable that runs from the wireless box into the input end of the LR Baggs. The LR Baggs doesn't light up unless the cable is plugged halfway into the LR Baggs. The amp will make it's pop noise if this happens when volume is up and all is turned on, but plucking a bass string doesn't produce bass sound from the amp. Plugging the cable from the wireless box all the way into the LR Baggs doesn't light up the LR Baggs, and no sounds come from the bass amp when strings are plucked (except it's whooshy bass amp sounds that are always there).

If I get rid of the LR Baggs, and use my electric bass guitar , the wireless works, and I hear my electric through the amp.

If I plug a cable directly into my pick-ups on the string bass to the LR Baggs, the string bass sounds through the bass amp.
 
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#4
Is your wiring pickup->preamp->wireless?
If not, it needs to be...
There's no real way around this getting a little technical but it'll have what you need to start the research and learning process on your own...

The Underwood pickup is a piezo and needs to connect to a high-impedance preamp.
A little less technical - the Underwood senses the vibrations directly and produces a very small signal that needs a very sensitive "listening device" that doesn't load that signal very much. DB piezo pickup preamps do that. (So does the fDeck High Pass Filter, for which you should search the effects forums...)

If you're trying to plug the pickup directly into the wireless, it will drag down the signal so much there's nothing left.
 
#5
CherylTheSinger said:
The little light doesn't light up on the LR Baggs when I say "no response." When I say "about halfway," I mean I inserted the cable about halfway in.

I don't know what gain is.

I plug the wireless box into the wall which turns it on (the lights are on)

I plug my amp into the wall (and when all is said and done I turn it on, light is on, it makes it's amp wooshy noises.)

I plug my cable into my wireless portable box, and the other end of that cable into the bass pick-ups end that I plug the cable into (tabs are stuck into the bridge). I turn on the box, light is green.

I plug a cable that runs from the amp into the output end of the LR Baggs.

I plug a cable that runs from the wireless box into the input end of the LR Baggs. The LR Baggs doesn't light up unless the cable is plugged halfway into the LR Baggs. The amp will make it's pop noise if this happens when volume is up and all is turned on, but plucking a bass string doesn't produce bass sound from the amp. Plugging the cable from the wireless box all the way into the LR Baggs doesn't light up the LR Baggs, and no sounds come from the bass amp when strings are plucked (except it's whooshy bass amp sounds that are always there).

If I get rid of the LR Baggs, and use my electric bass guitar , the wireless works, and I hear my electric through the amp.

If I plug a cable directly into my pick-ups on the string bass to the LR Baggs, the string bass sounds through the bass amp.
Click to expand...

I'm no expert on this, but the fact that you only get sound when halfway plugged in makes me think that it's an issue with that cable. Maybe you have a stereo cable going into a mono input or maybe that cable is bad. Borrow or buy another cable and replace this one and see if that helps.
 
#6
ArtechnikA is right that the preamp must sit directly behind the pickup and in front of the wireless transmitter.
But the signal is not small but weak, which means a low input resistance (which is a high load to the pickup) might let the voltage break down, either totally or partially (making a bad sound, specially if you play louder). So the high impedance buffer (preamp) makes the signal stronger (could be loaded more before voltage breakdown, could be connected to a lower impedance input), but generally does not amplify the voltage but the current.

Wireless devices are made for magnetic pickups and have a lower impedance than needed for the passive piezo of your Underwood. And if the level is not high enough the wireless transmitter might close the transmission to avoid transmission of noise. So check the transmitter if there is a signal indicator for a transmittable signal showing the signal is good (or bad).
 
#7
It is definitely optimum for the pre-amp to follow the pickup in the signal chain. That, as has been stated many times before, is to provide optimum loading. Optimum loading is far more about desired frequency response than it is about level issues. The signal from a piezo, as DoubleMIDI mentioned, is not weak at all. Although the input impedance of the wireless device is likely too low for optimum frequency response from the pickup, it should not load down the piezo to the point that one would expect the voltage to be so low that one hears nothing at all. In short, the ordering in the signal chain is not likely to be the problem unless some other factor is at at play. Still, it would be best to order the signal chain as follows: pickup=> pre-amp=>wireless device>amp.

PDGood said:
I'm no expert on this, but the fact that you only get sound when halfway plugged in makes me think that it's an issue with that cable. Maybe you have a stereo cable going into a mono input or maybe that cable is bad. Borrow or buy another cable and replace this one and see if that helps.
Click to expand...
Yes! :)
 
#9
ArtechnikA said:
I'd agree except - she never said she ever got sound through the wireless.
She said the pre-amp would 'turn on' when the plug was inserted. Kinda like virtually every plug-switched device...
Click to expand...

Yes, but the very same wireless device is reported to work with two other sources. So, it may, in fact, be the cable that's being used with the pickup, etc.
 
#10
Just for the heck of it I tried using the wireless without the LR Baggs. It does produce sound, not one that any human would enjoy, but that works. It just doesn't make sound with the LR Baggs in the mix.

The same cables work with the other devices, and with the wireless. I have switched the cables around a bit, same result. I have not tried it with an XLR, as I don't have one, but the manual says that the XLR in the LR Baggs is the same as the 1/4 inch.
 
#14
CherylTheSinger said:
My teacher got back to be via email, and solved my problem.

underwood into the Baggs. 1/4 inch ( line level) output of Baggs to the transmitter of the wireless. Output of wireless receiver into amp ( line level 1/4 inch ) or mixer board ( XLR output mic level)

This works. yeah! Thanks all for playing.
Click to expand...

Well, how else were you doing it?! Folks here agreed that that should be the order.
drurb said:
...Still, it would be best to order the signal chain as follows: pickup=> pre-amp=>wireless device>amp.
Click to expand...
As I said:
drurb said:
If you're getting no response at all, then I'd say you have a connection error.
Click to expand...
 
#16
I was doing it like I said in the second post. :)

Don't think I understood your posts then, but thanks. Something about terms like "behind," I was thinking you meant literally behind, like as if in direction, like "sit behind the drums," or
"don't hide behind that tall person, we can't see you." I wasn't sure why you would say that, but it is wireless, I mean, you can't be near certain things or you get feedback. I figured it was something like that. My entire musical career I have avoided any amplification whatsoever, except using the bone structure in my face and the structure of the room that I am. I can see and feel that, and it makes a lot more sense to me. Bigger the room, or even outdoors, (as long as it has something to bounce off of) the bigger my voice. Always worked that way. Amps and volts.. didn't know there was a difference. It's working now. I clearly just didn't understand. I appreciate your trying.

If by phantom power you mean a battery, then yes? There is a battery in Baggs. Is phantom power a power source that isn't from an electronic outlet? It's actually a little red light hehe.

This is a woman who still uses the heal of her shoe to hammer things. Not all sure about terminology. I'll get the jargon eventually. Thanks again. I am just happy to have it working.
I have to figure out now how this works the way it does work. Doesn't make sense to me yet.
I like things to make sense maybe even more than I like them to actually work. I would have never thought to plug the pick ups directly into the pre-Amp, then to output, then to input. I thought output would be to the amp itself, input would be from the source, not the other way around, especially when it appears to be the other way around with the bass guitar and my microphone from my vocals. Because in my mind the instrument would be inputting sound to something that would take a signal to the air or to the amp, and outputting would be to the actual amp who is taking to our ears I thought that would work. Apparently, that isn't the way things work. Please excuse my lack of understanding, and seriously thanks again for your attempts at trying to help me understand.
 
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