Hi. I have a Cali 76 Compact Bass pedal. I'm curious to know what you think about using it in the effects loop, as opposed to in the chain before the amp?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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Using compression in the effects loop?
- Thread starter Matty V PDX
- Start date
Roland GR 88
Commercial User
Try it and see. You won’t be compressing before the preamp and this could be good. You could be bringing up the noise floor after all the gain staging from a pedalboard and this could be bad. You’ll just have to try it.
I currently have an Aguilar comp in the loop of a TH700 running after an octave pedal. This leaves the preamp uncoloured from the mess of the octave squelching away in theory but in reality I don’t hear much of a difference.
I currently have an Aguilar comp in the loop of a TH700 running after an octave pedal. This leaves the preamp uncoloured from the mess of the octave squelching away in theory but in reality I don’t hear much of a difference.
FullumMusic
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Make sure your FX loop isn't Line Level. I feel like most amps these days are no longer doing Line Level FX loops, but it's always prudent to double check before running Line Level signal through your pedals expecting Instrument Level and also deal with impedance mismatch.
Curious; don't compressors take out a lot of what you do want? Why not just EQ and picking dynamics?
I am curious about this, as I am planning to use a UAfx 1176 in the effects loop of a TH500. I want the gain stage to react to the playing dynamics and the compressor to affect the signal afterwards. Are there any disadvantages, or damages even, that I would need to consider?
FullumMusic
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Nominal input levels:
Mic Level is around -60dBu to -40dBu;
Instrument Level is -20dBu to -10dBu;
Professional Line level is +4dBu;
(Consumer grade Line Level is -10dBu. Think Phono jack. But that's extraneous for what we're doing. We're using pro grade gear.)
If you check their User Manuals:
Invalid Link Removed accepts Instrument Level to the Input and outputs Instrument Level as well. Its input impedance is 1M Ohm; output impedance is 500 Ohms.
The Aguilar TH500 effects loop says it's intended to be used with professional rack gear with nominal input level of +4dBu. Nominal input of +4dBu is Line Level. Specifically states in the TH500 User Manual, "Effects pedals should be used in front of the amp."
So you're going to have a level & impedance mismatch if you just run a cable from the Send to your Pedals and back to your Return. The send is sending Line Level which is much hotter than the Instrument Level you pedal is expecting. Also, you're going to have an impedance mismatch going from Line to Instrument and back to Line levels.
Will it break your compressor pedal? Not necessarily.
Could it break your compressor pedal? Possibly.
Will it sound good? With the level and impedance mismatch, probably be at least noisy, possibly worse sounding.
This is why checking with the manual is important. Back in the day, decades ago, almost all FX loops on amps were designed for Line-level rack-mount studio gear. You ran instrument --> pedals --> Amp input --> Line Level Gear in the FX Loop --> Amp output/Cab
These days, there's less and less line-level rack-mount gear used for instruments. Pedals have pretty much taken over and their quality matches any of the old studio-grade rack-mount gear. So more and more amps have switched their FX loops to be instrument level to be used with pedals. But not all. Many are still Line Level FX loops. Always wise to check to see what your amp and gear are rated for.
Another note:
The gain stage isn't really reacting to the playing dynamics. It's just increasing the input signal some amount. You could achieve the same thing by turning up the input gain on the compressor.
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According to Origin, if you run the Cali off of 18 volts, it will have the headroom to handle line level signal. Confirm that your Cali can indeed accept 18 volts on the supply, then give it a try.
TECH TIPS: From Pedalboard to Outboard Using the Cali76 in Your Home Studio
TECH TIPS: From Pedalboard to Outboard Using the Cali76 in Your Home Studio
It's basically the difference between putting a compressor before an equaliser, Vs putting it after an equaliser.
The advantage of putting a compressor after an equaliser, is that you can attenuate frequencies that you don't want triggering the compressor, or exaggerate the frequencies that you do want to trigger the compressor.
The disadvantage of putting a compressor after an equaliser (particularly in a live setting) is that any EQ adjustments you make on the fly, will affect how the compressor reacts, and will probably require compensationary adjustments.
For example, if you needed to boost your bass frequencies, this is where the most amount of energy is, and will cause the compressor to react - effectively attenuating treble frequencies, as the volume gets squashed down.
The other good reason to not put a pedal in the effects loop (but instead connect it to the instrument, before going to the preamp) is that pedals operate at instrument level, whereas most effects loops operate at line level, and are intended to be used with rackmount devices - it'll still work, but it can be noisy, and for the reasons mentioned above, creates a lot of potential moving targets, that just make life harder (similarly, if you use distortion in the effects loop - any EQ adjustments to compensate for the room, will completely change the way the distortion pedal sounds / reacts).
The general rule with effects loops is that you only use them for Time Domain effects (delay, reverb, chorus, phase, flange).
If you're using Frequency Domain effects (EQ, distortion), you should generally connect directly to them, in series.
There are some effects that fit into both categories (compression, envelope filters), and you need to consider how your using them, and what the advantages, and pitfalls are - this is an instance where compression is operating in the Frequency Domain.
Thanks, I appreciate that a lot!Nominal input levels:
Mic Level is around -60dBu to -40dBu;
Instrument Level is -20dBu to -10dBu;
Professional Line level is +4dBu;
(Consumer grade Line Level is -10dBu. Think Phono jack. But that's extraneous for what we're doing. We're using pro grade gear.)
If you check their User Manuals:
Invalid Link Removed accepts Instrument Level to the Input and outputs Instrument Level as well. Its input impedance is 1M Ohm; output impedance is 500 Ohms.
The Aguilar TH500 effects loop says it's intended to be used with professional rack gear with nominal input level of +4dBu. Nominal input of +4dBu is Line Level. Specifically states in the TH500 User Manual, "Effects pedals should be used in front of the amp."
So you're going to have a level & impedance mismatch if you just run a cable from the Send to your Pedals and back to your Return. The send is sending Line Level which is much hotter than the Instrument Level you pedal is expecting. Also, you're going to have an impedance mismatch going from Line to Instrument and back to Line levels.
Will it break your compressor pedal? Not necessarily.
Could it break your compressor pedal? Possibly.
Will it sound good? With the level and impedance mismatch, probably be at least noisy, possibly worse sounding.
This is why checking with the manual is important. Back in the day, decades ago, almost all FX loops on amps were designed for Line-level rack-mount studio gear. You ran instrument --> pedals --> Amp input --> Line Level Gear in the FX Loop --> Amp output/Cab
These days, there's less and less line-level rack-mount gear used for instruments. Pedals have pretty much taken over and their quality matches any of the old studio-grade rack-mount gear. So more and more amps have switched their FX loops to be instrument level to be used with pedals. But not all. Many are still Line Level FX loops. Always wise to check to see what your amp and gear are rated for.
Another note:
The gain stage isn't really reacting to the playing dynamics. It's just increasing the input signal some amount. You could achieve the same thing by turning up the input gain on the compressor.
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Probably. To be honest, I hardly use this device. I've never used any effects, but thought I'd give this a try. It's a nice piece, but I've always just relied on technique to control my sound and find that I don't like to bother with too many things. The only piece I've bought that I use on nearly every gig is a Noble DI.
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There's a level mismatch but there's no impedance mismatch.
Origin states the Cali76 can handle line level so should be fine. Might have noise floor issues but that’s just theoretical until you test it out and see.
Ba55Man1ac
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FullumMusic
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No.
Compressors don't inherently "take out a lot of what you do want".
Depends on how you use it.
For instance, you could set the compressor to raise your level for when you're playing a quiet passage in a song, so it can be heard where otherwise your delicately played solo would be drowned out by the rest of the band. Then later in the song maybe it goes opposite of tight and polite and the whole band goes bombastic for the big finish and the compressor prevents your signal from muddying and taking over the mix, but still gives you an attack that cuts through the rest of the band and makes your bass sit pretty in the mix. So in this case, your dynamics are not killed by the compressor, as so many compressor-hating-punters opine, rather your playing dynamics are accentuated and heard.
Compressors are not a replacement for good technique such as being able to control your dynamics and play evenly, they're just a tool and should be selected when needed/wanted. For example: When performing home repairs, a hammer isn't always needed, nor is a chainsaw — but both tools have their place when needed, such as hanging a picture or removing dead branches off a tree in the yard.
If a compressor is killing a player's dynamics, then the player is most likely using the compressor incorrectly.
I've never understood some people's aversion to compressors. If comps are so bad and ruining dynamics, then studios and mastering-engineers wouldn't still be using them. Lotta records out there that have fantastic dynamics with compression all over the recording and mastering process...
FullumMusic
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