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Double Bass Vibrato - a new insight?

David Potts

David Potts

Aug 31, 2007
1,485
1,502
Sydney Australia
#1
I have been looking at cello lessons posted by Cellobello on Youtube and marvelling at how beautifully concise the material and its presentation has been.

Of particular relevance for me is the question of how to vary vibrato speed. There, in a few sentences, was an answer to my problem.

I have always used and taught a "whole forearm rollng" vibrato approach, not a "wrist" vibrato (rotating the radius and ulna, like twisting a round door knob) to produce the width and shape I want. The freedom of this rolling action is rather sensitive to the height of the elbow. The down side has been how to get faster and narrower without stiffening, i.e. to change the style according to the music.

In the Cellobello video called Invalid Link Removed Paul Katz explains that lifting the elbow slightly and turning the fingers to point a little more toward the bridge increases the speed, shape and width possibilities without losing the rolling forearm motion.

There are three more cellobello videos concerning continuity, width and speed of vibrato that are also worth checking out IMO.

What do you guys think?

DP
 
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#6
David Potts said:
In the Cellobello video called Invalid Link Removed Paul Katz explains that lifting the elbow slightly and turning the fingers to point a little more toward the bridge increases the speed, shape and width possibilities without losing the rolling forearm motion.
Click to expand...

Interesting! looks like he tilts the hand (at the 4th finger side) more away from the neck not towards the bridge as you say. Putting the fingers more diagonal/angled on the string instead of straight. Also in the beginning he mentions holding the fingers very close together to get more speed. I wonder how both things translate to TP vibrato on bass?
 
#7
Thanks for posting that video; it looks like a nice resource. I started on 'cello and switched to bass, so had to re-learn my left arm position (among other things :-0 ).

Most 'cellists, and too many bassists, IMHO, let the left elbow droop or be behind the bass, which restricts movement and complicates vibrato. I certainly had that problem; not reaching around the bass adequately, to ensure effortless access into the upper register.

Best specific guidance I got was from my teacher, Terry Plumeri, who talked about "bringing the left elbow around" and lifting the elbow to where needed to keep a fairly straight line between the forearm and back of the left hand. Both for strength and to create a clean, pivoting forearm/hand unit.


You can see him doing that, here:

 
#9
Eric Swanson said:
Best specific guidance I got was from my teacher, Terry Plumeri, who talked about "bringing the left elbow around" and lifting the elbow to where needed to keep a fairly straight line between the forearm and back of the left hand. Both for strength and to create a clean, pivoting forearm/hand unit.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know that video. I really like it. He has an unique style and his bowed sound and vibrato reminds me of saxophone playing. I think many classical teachers would not 'agree' with his vibrato since it is really different than the 'classical' vibrato. But with him it sounds great. He is a perfect example that vibrato is a highly personalized thing. What works for him might not work for you. Both on a technical and expression level. You can easily recognize a player by his vibrato style.
 
#10
Les Fret said:
Yes, I know that video. I really like it. He has an unique style and his bowed sound and vibrato reminds me of saxophone playing. I think many classical teachers would not 'agree' with his vibrato since it is really different than the 'classical' vibrato. But with him it sounds great. He is a perfect example that vibrato is a highly personalized thing. What works for him might not work for you. Both on a technical and expression level. You can easily recognize a player by his vibrato style.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. He would be happy to hear you say that you thought his sound was like a sax. His goal is a vocal, sax-like sound when playing jazz. Here, obviously, he is playing jazz, so is using a vibrato that suits him, for that music.

He studied with Robert Brennand (former NY Phil Principal Bass), was a section player with the National Symphony (under Antal Dorati), and plays with very different vibrati when playing classical, baroque, or modern music. His "legit" chops and sound are extremely solid and well-grounded, learned from one of the best orchestral players, ever.f

I worked on some of the Bach 'Cello Suites, a bit, with him. In playing those, for example, his vibrato is/was very different. My point is the same as what his point always was; have a versatile enough technique to be able to play anywhere on the bass, in any style. Don't let technical shortcomings dictate how we play.

Having a left arm that is free to move, however one wants, is a great starting point, I have found. He changed my agility just by making me lift my left elbow, bring my arm around, and rotate from my elbow, with the whole arm/hand unit swinging. Much more predictable control and even vibrati, in any style, on any finger.

I think, as a former 'cellist, that while the 'cello videos are great and very interesting, because of the bass' larger size, the arm position is so different that some of what they show on that video is not too directly applicable. But, of course, the concept of differing vibrato per the music at hand is perfect, IMHO.
 
#11
For what it's worth, Joel Quarrington really helped open my eyes on how to achieve a clearer and more functional vibrato.

It starts by accepting the basic concept that all vibrato must roll ONLY flat of the note and back up to the pitch. This focuses the pitch center and gives a clear point of contact to the finger. When vibrato occurs sharp of the pitch there are no longer any parameters of an exact pitch and your tone will resemble more of a wobble.

To achieve this the hand must be in a position to rock flat of the note and this means that the fingers of the hand must go more in the direction of the string (or pointing toward the bridge). The wrist must be flexible and vibrato is made by rotating the wrist like you described in your first post.

This concept of a flexible wrist with the fingers of the left hand going in the direction of the string (as opposed to addressing the string at a right angle), is very similar in concept to what William Pleeth describes in his book "Cello". Pleeth is a strong advocate of this method and is opposed to the "static hand", where one forces the fingers to remain rigid and locked over their pitches in position. It is an age old argument that cellists (and now bassists) have been engaged in for a very long time.

For me, accepting this principle has led to other benefits. It allows the hand and arm to stay relaxed and thus a more functional (or varied) vibrato with a clearer pitch centered is achieved because I can put each finger at its most balanced position. The rotation of the wrist also allows you to use the entire forearm in playing trills and turns and this makes the inherent rhythm of passages much easier to execute. It also is the same motion that aids in pivoting and thus makes reaching minor thirds on one string possible because you can rebalance the hand from note to note instead of stretching and holding the hand in an extension (which causes a lot of tension and pain). I also think that having the fingers at this angles helps reduce the friction and make shifting easier, it also helps keep the hand compact and powerful and retains strength.

Just my two cents.
 
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#12
If only I could get back my copy of the Pleeth book that a former student has absconded with!!

In the posts above there seems to be no support for the "wrist" vibrato we often see used at high speed by cellists. We all seem to talk about the forearm rolling but differ in describing which direction fingers point.

Each of my fingers usually tends to point across the string for vibrato in neck positions and (if there is time) it is opposed by the thumb close to opposite otherwise the freedom to roll becomes choked. I use 1 2 3 4 fingering all over the neck positions and don't hold my fingers spread in a stiff claw for any longer than it takes to stretch/roll to the next note in the same position. I observe four components to the way my vibrato is produced, using my second finger as an example. The first is a small rolling movement of the fleshy pad around the bone. The second is a twisting of the arched finger. You can produce a vibrato by combining these two when moving your hand parallel to the neck with no forearm rolling and no thumb contact on the back. The same two components and flat sideways hand movement can produce quite a good vibrato in thumb position where the amplitude of the vibrato is reduced because the arched fingers now point diagonally towards the bridge and only part of their movement translates into shortening/lengthening the string.

The third component is the larger rolling action action of the forearm that adds to and amplifies the first two actions. The rolling happens most freely and naturally when the thumb is opposite the finger but usually needs a little help from the fourth component, the slightly relaxed and flexible wrist that adds elasticity. The height of my elbow in relation to my hand also impacts on the freedom and action of the rolling motion. My upper arm and shoulder remain relaxed, tending to counterbalance and stabilise the vibrato action

I often say to my students that the wrist and heel of my hand are like a gentle hammer that is being thrown towards the bridge but is trapped into a rolling motion by the arched finger and thumb opposing each other. The hand goes "up" (in pitch) slightly faster than it rebounds. There is a feeling of elastic bounce at the "top" of the movement followed by relaxing back. I try to maintain much the same finger arching and elasticity as the hand transitions into thumb position and the vibrato action changes to become flatter and more diagonally directed but still capable of rolling a little.

So this middle-of-the-neck vibrato with fingers pointing across the neck that I described above is capable of being altered using advice given in the Cellobello Youtube lessons. By lifting the elbow slightly and turning the fingers to point a little more toward the bridge, and opening or closing the spread of the hand I can extend the range of shapes, speed and intensity of vibrato without losing much of the rolling action.

Cheers,
DP
 
#15
paulunger said:
+1 for Mr. Potts description. He describes it far better than I did.
And thanks for the video link. At the end of the video you can see what Joel Quarrington is talking about when he describes angling the first finger in the direction of the string (or pointing at the bridge), to achieve a more functional vibrato.
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

what video of Joel Quarrington do you mean?

Thanks,

TonyD
 
#18
Yes. Exactly. The only difference is that the rotation in the forearm and wrist that Jeff talks about when he plays with the 4th finger, is the same rotation that Joel advocates also using for the 2nd and 3rd fingers.
In other words, Joel advocates never keeping the arm static and having the entire motion in the fingers only. He advocates using rotation for every note.
This same rotation in the forearm and wrist then becomes the same basic motion for vibrato.
 
#19
Lately I've come to experience vibrato as micro-glissandi. I've gotten my technique onto the tips of the fingers in the left hand (after building up the pads!). I find that less flesh in the left hand brings clearer sound, more facility, and less drag when shifting.. and also that it enables a highly variable, highly expressive vibrato with relative ease compared to the rocking method I was taught.
Having done some audio engineering, including pitching vocals, I was fascinated to observe that the amplitude of a singer's vibrato was as much as a minor third in pitch variation. If we're going to come anywhere near that kind of intervalic range, we've got to be ready to travel the neck somewhat in the course of a vibrato. Some players with great command of vibrato come to mind, among them Charlie Mingus, and Edgar Meyer... and both are capable of extremely wide excursion in the pitch during their vibrato.

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