Double Bass Viola da Gamba and the German Bow

[Dogfightgiggle]

I’ve been digging through some videos on viola da gamba playing and I thought they were pretty interesting as a German bow player.


Bach on the bass, with Jordi Savall – MUSAIC

The video linked above is on the New World site so I can’t embed it, but it features a very good double bassist performing some Bach and receiving feedback from Jordi Savall on his bow hold.




And here is Sam Stadlen of Fretwork describing the basics of gamba technique. I’ve linked the first one as it ties in with Savall clip, but they are definitely all worth checking out. So many parallels to the double bass!

 

[eerbrev]

As someone who's played gamba and also plays bass underhand, I definitely think there's a lot to incorporate from the style of bowing Savall is recommending here. There's also a lot we could steal from repertoire, in my opinion, but that's a post for another day.

It also makes sense that a lot of the technique applies to bass because the bass is a strange, stepchild of the gamba and the violin, not being exactly like either family.

There's a lot of people who have great success with little to no flex in their wrist when playing. I have *no idea* how they do it (clearly it's witchcraft!!), because that flexibility Savall is showing is a must for me and I think the sound difference is obvious in that clip. There's an element of fingers and wrist working together.

The other thing about the gamba style of underhand playing using this flexibility is that it really forces your hand to be relaxed. You're barely holding the bow at all, and it shows you how little weight you really need in the string to make it vibrate.

Thanks for posting this stuff!

 

[Dogfightgiggle]

@eerbrev

Sorry to pounce on you here, but any insight you could offer would be amazing as I struggle with achieving the kind of flexible wrist that gamba players enjoy.

I find that if I bring my index or even index+middle over the top of the bow and straighten out my thumb I can mimic the gamba hold to an extent.

Kind of the Czech style seen here with Gajdos:



This hold feels fantastic for legato playing as it lets the wrist stay pretty straight (it seems that curving the wrist tightens it up), but I find that it doesn’t work well for off the string playing. I need a more Simandl like hold for that stuff.

Unfortunately, the slight cocking of the thumb necessary for the Simandl hold also tightens up my wrist and I lose a lot a little of that good legato feeling. Further, when I play on the G string with this hold I have to add substantial curvature to the wrist which tightens things further.

Maybe I should just embrace the undefined nature of the German bow and let the line dictate the hold to an extant.

Thoughts?

I have a junky French bow in the closet that tempts me at times...

 

[eerbrev]

First off, that video is amazing and hilarious. Singing *and* playing Per Questa is *wild*.

I'm going to try to put this into words. It took me a year of my masters to get my spiccato to a place I liked it. A lot of it has to do with finger flexibility.

Here are some pics of what my bow hand looks like - it might look like there's weird pressure on the pinky but that's because I'm like, trying to hold it up and take a picture of it instead of resting it on the string.



All of my fingers are super relaxed, and it looks a little bit like I'm holding a tennis ball. The stick sits sort of on top of, or just below, the bottom knuckle on my first finger. I was taught to play german by a student of Quarrington, so my hold looks similar to his approach (though I am sure it's not identical).

From that position, I can pull (engage the muscles to "squish the ball") and push my fingers (engage the muscles to extend my fingers straight) to create a downbow and upbow motion. Combine that motion with a subtle matched inward (upbow) and outward (downbow) motion in the wrist, and that's the fundamental movement that Savall is doing here. He's leading with the forearm more than I do, but I don't think the fundamentals differ much.

Spiccato on the German bow is quite hard, in my opinion (I'm sure French bow players probably say the same thing). A fundamental legato stroke comes incredibly easily, and a fundamental almost battuto stroke (where it's all bounce and basically no pitch) also comes very easily, because the German bow bounces so well. It's all those in-betweens that require a lot of practice and nuance. However, from the position I'm holding my hand, I find it more than secure enough to produce spiccato.

Hope this helps?

A

 

[Dogfightgiggle]

I know what you mean about photographing a bow hold without the string adding it’s part of the equation.

Interesting that you don’t seem to have your thumb on the top of the stick. I may be too attached to that ideal, I’ll see if allowing some play there let’s the bow to find a better position.

Thank you for that response, a lot to chew on there!

 

[eerbrev]

I know what you mean about photographing a bow hold without the string adding it’s part of the equation.

Interesting that you don’t seem to have your thumb on the top of the stick. I may be too attached to that ideal, I’ll see if allowing some play there let’s the bow to find a better position.

Thank you for that response, a lot to chew on there!

I've never had my thumb on top of the stick. I was taught that the side of the thumb should rest on the top left side of the octagon (if you get what I'm saying). I've also seen a thumb position where it was like, perpendicular to the stick and first finger.

German bow holds are super variant. What works, works, but if it's holding you back then trying something else shouldn't freak you out too much.

 

[Andy Mopley]

eerbrev - thanks for asking all the questions I was going to ask myself (never got around to it). Flapping of the wrist is something I too struggled with until I started to hold the bow in the same way as you have pictured.
Granted a little hard to execute on long bows but on short ones, can definitely see the movement I need! Am i right in saying that the end of the stick doesn't sit at the juncture of the thumb, rather a little offset to that?
Thanks again!!

 

[Dogfightgiggle]

Actually, I think I got somewhere with this. I just needed to bring awareness to my middle finger and really feel the bow balancing there. It immediately freed things up.

I still like the thumb right on top of the stick, putting it off to the side makes the sound too light for my tastes (more familiarity would help with this probably) and I can’t really get with using the fingers in anything but a passive role, no pushing or pulling for me.

Thank you again though, @eerbrev. I may not have taken on all of your approach, but your post did help me find some missing finger intelligence.

@Andy Mopley , I need to investigate this further now, but I think I like the bow’s screw set pretty well into the juncture. Seems like the sound is fatter. For now...

 

[eerbrev]

eerbrev - thanks for asking all the questions I was going to ask myself (never got around to it). Flapping of the wrist is something I too struggled with until I started to hold the bow in the same way as you have pictured.
Granted a little hard to execute on long bows but on short ones, can definitely see the movement I need! Am i right in saying that the end of the stick doesn't sit at the juncture of the thumb, rather a little offset to that?
Thanks again!!

Yeah, it's offset. Let me see if I can map it out in words -

You've got the thumb, the fleshy webbing between, and then the index finger. I'm placing my stick on the webbing side of what I'd guess you'd call the 0th knuckle? That one that sticks out when you make a fist.

I want to expand on what I said here a bit for the purposes of clarity:

From that position, I can pull (engage the muscles to "squish the ball") and push my fingers (engage the muscles to extend my fingers straight) to create a downbow and upbow motion. Combine that motion with a subtle matched inward (upbow) and outward (downbow) motion in the wrist, and that's the fundamental movement that Savall is doing here. He's leading with the forearm more than I do, but I don't think the fundamentals differ much.

this is the motion when you're making a short stroke, like a spiccato, or like 16th notes. When you're making a longer stroke, this finger and wrist motion is occurring at the bow change, and you can think of it one of two ways -

1.) that the motion (pull for downbow, push for upbow) is happening first, as part of the bow direction change, which you then follow up with your arm moving as normal.

or, the way that is a little simpler to think about but less literally true

2.) that the motions are backwards.

That means that as you pull a long slow downbow (for the purposes of this exercise), your fingers are more straight and the frog sits a little further out in your fingers, and on a long slow upbow, your fingers are more curved, and the frog sits a little deeper in your palm.

Hope that's clear as mud!

 

[Andy Mopley]

I also found that the frog doesn't sit / isn't cupped within the hand, rather there is a little space between the palm and the frog...but that could just be me experimenting with the hold..

 

[Andy Mopley]

Bow holds - South Washington County Schools Elementary Orchestra This is identical to where I am at, in reference to my earlier post...

 

[AngieBass]

@eerbrev

Sorry to pounce on you here, but any insight you could offer would be amazing as I struggle with achieving the kind of flexible wrist that gamba players enjoy.

I find that if I bring my index or even index+middle over the top of the bow and straighten out my thumb I can mimic the gamba hold to an extent.

Kind of the Czech style seen here with Gajdos:



This hold feels fantastic for legato playing as it lets the wrist stay pretty straight (it seems that curving the wrist tightens it up), but I find that it doesn’t work well for off the string playing. I need a more Simandl like hold for that stuff.

Unfortunately, the slight cocking of the thumb necessary for the Simandl hold also tightens up my wrist and I lose a lot a little of that good legato feeling. Further, when I play on the G string with this hold I have to add substantial curvature to the wrist which tightens things further.

Maybe I should just embrace the undefined nature of the German bow and let the line dictate the hold to an extant.

Thoughts?

I have a junky French bow in the closet that tempts me at times...

Hey, this is a great thread!
I also play with the German bow, and my professor often advised me to listen to viola da gamba players to get this relaxed yet controlled feeling. For me it wasn't so much about holding the bow, but rather using the weight of your arm instead of really "pressing" the string aggressively. Relaxing the shoulder onto the string, and using the wrist and the elbow for different bow strokes. (as in legato, spiccato, secco or detasche)

I didn't play with the French bow, maybe someone else could comment on this, but it seems like the technique is pretty similar, apart from the bow hold. You also need the relaxed weight of the arm, the relaxed elbow and moveable wrist. You also need fingers to control movement, like in spiccato. So, I don't think it would make a really big difference? French bow holders, correct me if I'm wrong!


I think @eerbrev pretty much explained everything. I also hold the bow as if I'm grabbing a tennis ball. Each hand is different tho, try to find a place that really feels good.

Good luck <3

 

[eerbrev]

A belated update:



Heather Miller Lardin is pretty well known in early bass circles. Worth considering what she says. She also has a good video on that channel playing G Violone.

 

[Dogfightgiggle]

A belated update:



Heather Miller Lardin is pretty well known in early bass circles. Worth considering what she says. She also has a good video on that channel playing G Violone.

That’s cool! Not too different from what I’ve settled on for now with my thumb and middle being the primary devices.

The arm gestures are fairly different though for a gamba player though as I understand it.

 

[eerbrev]

That’s cool! Not too different from what I’ve settled on for now with my thumb and middle being the primary devices.

The arm gestures are fairly different though for a gamba player though as I understand it.

I think her wrist and finger movements when she does her german bow example are really good and useful to look at.

re: your last comment, I'm not sure what you mean? She also plays gamba and violone. Unless you're talking about how gamba starts upbow as it's "strong" gesture.

 

[Dogfightgiggle]

@eerbrev

Maybe gesture wasn’t quite the right word, I was referring to what I perceive as a slightly more overturned forearm for the gamba player. It sort of adds to the “skipping a stone” parallel that Savall makes in the first video.

I could definitely be off base with that.