Vocals only vs everything through the board

[Downunderwonder]

So which is it, guys? Over-powering stage volume or brutal overall loudness from a ham-fisted FOH guy?

It's a non question aka false dichotomy. I was talking of bars where any reasonable level of rocking out on stage is plenty loud for the venue with no reinforcement. If you are playing a palace more power to you. I don't think the OP is playing to multiple hundreds.

 

[Blaze Barlow]

We're a small rock covers band, mainly playing local bars. Three of the four of us sing. We have an older powered mixer that sounds great and is reliable, use powered floor monitors for vocals only, and this has served us well. I run the sound because it takes very little time to set up my bass rig, and I'm the gear geek.

Our last gig was outdoor, a pool party. The drummer complained that he couldn't hear the guitarist so I mic'ed his cab at break. After a little knob juggling things sounded decent and the drummer was happy.

The drummer also commented that he kept on smelling something burning, but I couldn't track it down. Until the keyboardist's amp let out some magic smoke. Ran the keyboards direct into the PA and we finished the gig.

This has got me reconsidering our stage setup. I'm starting to think that I should run everything through the PA now, but keeping bass and drums out of the floor monitors. My concern is I don't really want to mic the drums, especially for bar gigs. I don't want to set it all up and tear it down. Doing so would probably also mean having to get a bigger mixer for more channel inputs and better monitoring options. I don't think the band is enthusiastic about buying and hauling more gear and I've got no space for storage.

I'm open to hearing your thoughts on solutions.

it depends on what you music performance plans are going forward..if you think you will expand beyond what you are now doing..build your PA as you go..as far as micing drums go..there is nothing like a good kick drum in the mix..especially with a little gate on it..it shouldnt be overly loud..but in line with the bass guitar..

 

[Wasnex]

It's a non question aka false dichotomy. I was talking of bars where any reasonable level of rocking out on stage is plenty loud for the venue with no reinforcement. If you are playing a palace more power to you. I don't think the OP is playing to multiple hundreds.

I think it's a choice that audio techs deal with every day. With a proper system it's often possible to produce a great mix, but I won't do it if it requires brutal SPL to get over the stage wash. If the stage volume is overpowering, then I try to negotiate for a better balance. If that doesn't work, I make the best of it and run vocals only if I have to. If that means the mix sucks, the mix sucks, so no ham here.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I think it's a choice that audio techs deal with every day. With a proper system it's often possible to produce a great mix, but I won't do it if it requires brutal SPL to get over the stage wash. If the stage volume is overpowering, then I try to negotiate for a better balance. If that doesn't work, I make the best of it and run vocals only if I have to. If that means the mix sucks, the mix sucks, so no ham here.

Been there done that, a few free beers but no T shirt. ''Turn up the singer!'' Point to desk, only thing up is the singer, ''tell the band to turn it down a bit!''.

 

[woody357]

I found myself in this same dilemma. I have two different setups one with two subs, and one with two Bose L1 S1 B2s. The Bose is crystal clear but doesn’t have the punch of the bigger setup, and I have to run everything really low other than the vocals and keys in that setup. I like the idea of running everything threw the pa, it can hav a more balanced sound and not overly loud if people can control their amp volume.

 

[jj.833]

I play in 10 people jazz band, and whenever opportunities force us to mic everything up, it's necessary to hire a mix guy and start the sound check a full hour earlier. In a small club, I like the smaller setup better anyway, makes me feel better connected with the audience (they hear what I hear).
When playing in RnR trio, I once tried to run my double bass through the small voice PA (no subwoofers), the band sounded weird and the active speakers almost burned after a while (they had a safeguard luckilly). It showed me very illustratively that the low bass frequencies need MUCH more power than the rest of the band. This can be walked around by using hipass somewhere around 70Hz on bass instruments; but if you plan to run bass and kick through the PA you might need to acquire the terribly-heavy-whole-trunk-consuming boxes that naturally go with it.

 

[lfmn16]

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

 

[micguy]

Even if it isn’t loud, having everything in the PA makes for a more even and controlled dispersion of your sound. As was mentioned, everyone has to have control of their amp volume.

I agree, with one small exception.

There are (the way I look at things) 2 levels of PA's - one is good enough for just vocals, with maybe an acoustic thrown in - no kick or bass in the PA. As you're just keeping up with the other stuff playing through their amps (and the drums unmiked), the SPL requirements for that PA aren't all that tough. In this scenario, everyone has to play nice together, and control their volume, and if told my the sound person to turn down, do it. It can work, but you have to work within it's limitations, and the point above about even dispersion applies - the mix will vary throughout the venue somewhat.

The other kind of PA is the "everything" PA. If you decide you need to mic the kick drum (often the first thing in the guitar/bass/drum world that need help), I think you're at the point where you need to consider a major upgrade in PA. That means one that can handle the kick and bass signals - those are the things that tax a PA, the rest comes along for free, assuming the speakers sound decent. This is generally a much more capable PA than the vocal only one - much more surface area to the woofers, more power in the amps, etc. The total scale of that PA will depend on the size of venues you want to play, and how loud you want it. You still have to play nicely with each other, but there's some relaxation of that, depending on how much you're trusting the the PA to do the heavy lifting.

 

[StraffordMike]

My last serious coverband is still trying to go ampless on stage and they keep hemorrhaging players because they can’t get a grip mixing their sound. Everyone leaves pissed off. The bandleader spends more time on his tablet trying to mix sound while singing and playing guitar.
My latest band is full blown big amps on stage, vocals, kick and a feed out for me to the house which is only there if needed.
With 4 guys. We’re set up in 10 minutes, and noones complained so far.
Not to mention we need to touch base on the whole”stage presence” thing. Doesn’t look like a rock n roll show without them and I’m a firm believer in giving the people a show, otherwise they could stay home and listen to the original artists in the comfort of their own home.
So I vote, big amps, big volume, big hair and big t......

 

[EastCoastThump]

OP: a lot of advice in this thread seems geared toward sound in small to medium clubs rather than small bars. Your first post mentions bars, and says you've been happy with the sound of your small, vocals-only PA built around a powered mixer.

The two problems you mention seem like they could be solved fairly cheaply and directly, or by dramatically upgrading your band's rig—splashing out some cash, committing to a different scale of load-in, and possibly introducing some drama over gear expenses and who pays for, stores, carries, sets, and runs the more full-featured PA:

Q1. Playing outdoors rather than on a crowded bar "stage," your drummer can't hear the guitarist's amp as well as he'd like?
A1a (Bob's Bar and Grill): Make sure guitarist regularly sets up amp near drummer, toed in a bit if necessary.
A1b ("van tour" to small regional events): Trade your modest PA for a full PA with subs and mic everything.

Q2: Keyboardist's amp goes south during gig. What to do?
A2 (Bob's Bar & Grill): Keys player repairs amp or buys new one.
A2 ("van tour" to small regional events): Trade your modest PA for a full PA with subs and mic everything.​

The blue collar route makes sense if you're playing small bars, but stops making sense if your gigs regularly have more than 30-40 people on the dance floor at any one time. The "van tour" route makes sense if you're playing slightly bigger events with band-provided PA (small clubs, small public outdoor events), and if the band's culture supports the PA change.

The default TB gear answer is to upgrade to a digital mixer, a couple QSC 12.2s, and a sub or two. But the standard TB gig pic shows 3-4 people dancing in one wing of a local sports bar. If your band's solid and built for the long haul and mostly aspires to play small events, then definitely scale up. If otherwise, consider carefully before upgrading to a tweener ($2-3K) full PA that will handle the next level of small band-produced gigs, unless that expense is a minor one to you.

 

[woody357]

Ok in a place like this would you go with subs with tops, or just the two Bose setup. We play old school R&B and Neo Soul

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Small bar gigs don't need to be miced. The outdoor gig, probably. But, you did use the PA wisely when you had to. It is great for emergencies and special situations.
Last Friday we showed up to a gig expecting powered mains. They were passive. So I got out the Fender Rumble 500 head I carry for backup to my bass head put the board main out to the effects return on the Rumble and we had mains.
I also run the sound for my band. I don't want to do the extra work for no real benefit. I'm the first one to arrive and the last to leave as it is.

 

[Flashback Bass]

I hear this all the time from the Lead Guitarist and Drummer in my band, (the rhythm guitarist agrees with me,) that we need to run everything through the PA to get a more even and better sound!

We play small dive bars in front of 10 to 30 people. We are asked to turn down repeatedly because either the un-miked, acoustic drums are too loud or the "creeping" volume of the Lead Guitarist!

Yeah, I play with a couple of rocket scientist!

(Not to mention where we would get a sound person from since most of the time even their wives don't come to the gigs!)

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

Depends on the venue and stage volume. No need to Mic every single part of the kit or a blasting guitar amp at a tiny place imo. I'd KISS whenever I can especially if I double as the bassist/sound guy

 

[brianrost]

Putting everything through the PA doesn't necessarily mean that it all (or even anything) has to be brought up in the mains or anywhere else. However, if it isn't there in the first place, you don't have a choice. Personally, I like having the option.

This.

Miking up dums and amps or DIing outdoors, sure. In a bar, most often not...especially drums! Amps, bass and drums never in the monitors unless someone in the band specifically requests it and then as little as possible.

 

[Phil508]

Try a Kick Mic and 1 (or 2) condenser mics above the kit. you will be surprised. I starting to use less drum Mics but the kit sounds fuller with just the overhead and kick. Also easier to mix. I normally don't like that, but was filling in for a band as a just turn knobs gig and liked the sound , then I tried it for an outdoor gig and other people went up and told the drummer his kit sounded mint.

 

[s0c9]

Try a Kick Mic and 1 (or 2) condenser mics above the kit. you will be surprised. I starting to use less drum Mics but the kit sounds fuller with just the overhead and kick. Also easier to mix. I normally don't like that, but was filling in for a band as a just turn knobs gig and liked the sound , then I tried it for an outdoor gig and other people went up and told the drummer his kit sounded mint.

I've run kick and 2 overheads for bar bands for MANY years. Snare and cymbals will mostly cut thru without help, but the OH's can be EQ'd to get what you need.

 

[electracoyote]

I've run kick and 2 overheads for bar bands for MANY years. Snare and cymbals will mostly cut thru without help, but the OH's can be EQ'd to get what you need.

Try a Kick Mic and 1 (or 2) condenser mics above the kit. you will be surprised. I starting to use less drum Mics but the kit sounds fuller with just the overhead and kick. Also easier to mix. I normally don't like that, but was filling in for a band as a just turn knobs gig and liked the sound , then I tried it for an outdoor gig and other people went up and told the drummer his kit sounded mint.

Same here. Even in smaller bars and clubs. Our reasoning is two-fold: 1. Even with a hard hitting drummer on a well-tuned kit, as good as it sounds on stage, it's surprising how that starts to fade and thin out when you step off the stage and walk toward the back of the room. Having one dedicated sub and putting some drums through the mains can fill it up much better. Remember, it's not always about volume, it's about fullness and presence, and 2. We are a dance party band, and if people with their asses planted in seats away from the stage don't feel and hear the kick and snare well enough, their asses are likely to remain planted in those seats. So it's very situational, but I think this mentality would help any band sound better, especially if the rooms and stages start getting bigger.

Mic'ing things up doesn't mean breaking glass. You can still practice volume control appropriate to the venue. It just means you have more control about what goes on out front and can sound fuller (not necessarily louder, unless the room really is that big). And it's worth repeating: Everyone with an amplified instrument (acoustic drums aside) needs to practice good stage volume control with FOH support.

And "set it and forget it" is possible with a little practice. I do it in my band, and we always sound great out front. I walk out front with my wireless and make adjustments during sound check. It may never be as perfect as a dedicated sound engineer (assuming you guys have a line on a "perfect" sound engineer ), but it's very good and even, and I don't have to pay a dedicated sound person and can split that money between the musicians instead.

Also, once you've set levels and EQ'd things to a certain type of room, you can document those settings and use them over and over in that type of room. It's not like you have to ring out every room and start from scratch every time. I have a digital mixer with user presets and automatic recall at the push of a button, but you can use your notes and do it on analog boards too.

 

[Doug Parent]

With the great choices available now in powered PA cabinets, full range sound reinforcement is practical for many bands where previously it wasn't. The band sounds more balanced and the audience gets a much more cohesive auditory experience when everything is run through the PA. It does not have to be loud! Even distribution and representation is the goal. I play outdoors a lot and always run a kick mic, and one overhead condenser on the drums. Without it the drummer sounds like he's playing in a different time zone and that's due to time alignment. The hardest thing is getting the guitar player to change his perspective from the rigid self-centered paradigm to one of a better overall group experience. (Leave the Marshall at home fella's)
I say go for it. Your band will sound much more polished when the overall sound scape is accounted for and managed.

 

[DirtDog]

I built a similar system around 1994...IEMs, E-drums, no personal amps, stereo mains with subs. The only complaint we got was it sounded too much like a CD.

A normal part of my job was to play jazz combo background music for formal dinners and social gatherings. We started getting requests to play background rock shows instead of the normal jazz standards. I think our gear weight went from about 5,000lbs to under 1,100lbs. Setup and tear down was really fast and we really didn't need much of a sound check.

I built the system so a five piece band could travel in one of these.
View attachment 3078231
We were packed in like sardines with about 700lbs of gear. But we fit and got a soda and box lunch. Crazy!

Mmmm....USAF Box Lunch. drool