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Volume woes

OK. Why can't I get enough volume at gigs?

I had my Trace AH350SMX running through an SWR Goliath Jr. and an EA-NL210 (both 8 ohm), and those 350 watts were loud, but I was getting some clipping (mainly I think due to the power-hungry EA).

So I bought a power amp (a cheapie - Phonic XP2000) which is 400W/side at 8 ohms, 600 W/side @ 4ohms, or 1900W bridged at 4 ohms.

I've been using it at gigs (stereo, 400W into each cab), and in general have it turned up to 90-100% of its volume. It still isn't that loud! I mean it fills reasonable size venues, but with that power I'd expect to be on about 30% volume.

Why? Why do I never have enough volume? Do I need to put an obscene 1900W into these cabs? Do I need bigger cabs? Is my power amp just a P.O.S. that's lying about its output???? Arrgh.
 
1st off, trace elliot was very conservative with wattage ratings, they were the loudest amps i've heard watt for watt. (SS).

Second, although i can and will direct you to some of the links in the FAQ sticky regarding volume, i have to wonder just how loud your band is playing? I'm familiar with that trace amp, and it's devestating thru four tens. Perhaps everyone needs to turn down a bit.

Lastly, i would say that bigger/louder/more cabs may be the best bang for the buck. with the power amp you should have room for at least two more 8 ohm cabs. I actually use 4 eight ohm cabs myself with a poweramp, i just bring as many as i need to each gig.
 
simpy1 said:
OK. Why can't I get enough volume at gigs? 350 watts were loud
Watts aren't loud, or soft. They're a measurement of power, not sound levels, just as horsepower measures the power output of an engine, not how fast it will go. Otherwise an 800 HP Ferrari and an 800 HP dump truck would go equally fast.
So I bought a power amp (a cheapie - Phonic XP2000) which is 400W/side at 8 ohms
If you went from 350 w to 800 w using the same speakers you only increased the potential output by 4dB. That's about the equivalent of turning your volume control up from 5 to 6.
but with that power I'd expect to be on about 30% volume.
Sound levels are logarithmic in nature. To sound twice as loud than with 350 watts input your speakers would require 3500 watts input.
Why? Why do I never have enough volume? Do I need bigger cabs?
You need whatever it takes to reach the levels you want. Going loud and low requires a large, and preferably efficient, speaker system, there's no getting around the physics involved.
 
billfitzmaurice said:
Watts aren't loud, or soft. They're a measurement of power, not sound levels, just as horsepower measures the power output of an engine, not how fast it will go. Otherwise an 800 HP Ferrari and an 800 HP dump truck would go equally fast..

So far, so good.


billfitzmaurice said:
Sound levels are logarithmic in nature. To sound twice as loud than with 350 watts input your speakers would require 3500 watts input.

Yep, that's my understanding; to obtain a 3dB increase, ten times the power is required.

billfitzmaurice said:
If you went from 350 w to 800 w using the same speakers you only increased the potential output by 4dB. That's about the equivalent of turning your volume control up from 5 to 6.

Here's where I get confused

I've always thought a 3dB increase in sound pressure level was a doubling of "volume," which conflicts with your 4dB comment
 
I've always thought a 3dB increase in sound pressure level was a doubling of "volume," which conflicts with your 4dB comment
3dB is a doubling of power, not volume. As far as your ears are concerned it takes a 10dB increase in power to equal a doubling of volume. A 3dB variation is slight.
 
billfitzmaurice said:
You need whatever it takes to reach the levels you want. Going loud and low requires a large, and preferably efficient, speaker system, there's no getting around the physics involved.

The efficiency statement may be right on the money. Perhaps, because you are using two different speaker cabs...their Sensitivity ratings are conflicting. The SWR has a rating of 105dB and the EA has one of 100 dB. Maybe the SWR is getting more volume outta teh watts and starting to clip out earlier than the EA? These are just theories....:confused:
 
Man, my Trace RAH350SMX gets stupid loud! :bassist: I have never had any trouble getting the volume I need for any small to medium venues. If the venue is bigger than that, there should be PA support. BTW, I'm only using my TE 215 and a Bright Box. They aren't the most efficient cabs out there and still no volume problems.

I'm thinking Mike might be on to something. Just how loud does your band play? Also, does your bass have a hot enough signal being sent to the amp? Do you have the bass frequencies bumped up too much? Are you setting the gain properly on the SMX preamp?
 
I would first consider some eq changes to allow more mids to come through and avoide anysmiley face eq curves.

Second, I would say, consider replacing the SWR with larger cab, maybe a 4X10 or 1X15.

I have heard that head through a 2X15 and a 2X10 and it was amazingly loud!
 
Hey guys - thanks for all the replies.

Well my band doesn't play that loud, we play funk/soul music and usually it's quiet enough not to have to wear earplugs. We don't mic up the drums.

I saw a guy in the weekend playing with my same Trace amp thru a 1x15 at a party, and his volume was on 3. And this was the loudest (unmic'd) band I've ever heard! The bass sound was massive.

Funnily enough the EA sounds WAY louder than the SWR at the same volume level. Also funnily enough my TE is definitely louder than the power amp!

I'm thinking my problem could be that my bass really doesn't put out much low end (also not a very hot signal), so I end up EQ-ing in to compensate. The volume thing shouldn't matter, I just set the input gain to what it should be. The EQ thing I guess will make a big difference. But I don't add any 30 or 60 Hz, only freqs higher than that.

Also as a side note - I had my Trace amp serviced because I remember playing a gig ages ago and my volume on 3/10 was huge. I got asked to turn down (this is thru the Goliath Jr and a 1x15). The servicing did nothing for the volume difference, so maybe I'm just imagining that it's getting quieter!
 
I bought a sound pressure level meter (SPLM) to measure and correct the frequency response of my dedicated listening room back in the day.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spl-meter_e.html

It's a very useful tool that you can use to simply and quickly measure dB readings using two different weighting methods.

If all you are interested in is an objective measurement of your sound pressure level ("loudness" or "volume"), in dB, it's as simple as: point, shoot, and write down the instrument reading for each cabinet.

I use a tripod to position the microphone element at the same distance from the loudspeaker driver, and the same distance from the floor when measuring a bass cabinet (for hi-fi, I position the microphone on axis with the center of each loudspeaker when calculating the relative sensitivity of each driver for comparison purposes). Measurements will be comparable IF you take environmental conditions into account; for example, the measurements wouldn't be comparable if "Cabinet A" were measured while sitting in the corner of a wooden stage, and "Cabinet B" were measured outdoors, sitting on the lawn.

The obsessive among us have been known to measure SPL by frequency, first for the listening room, and then for the bass cabinet. After taking both sets of measurements, you can overlay the two graphs to identify possible environmental explanations for anomolies. (When I was setting up my listening room, my source was the best recording of acoustic piano I could find: if I could make it sound like there was a Bosendorfer grand in my listening room, the fidelity would be perfectly acceptable to me ;) )

Make note of the gain, tone, and equalization settings on each rig you're testing, and use the same bass (same strings, volume, and tone settings) for each test if you can. I test using at least three different amplifier attenuation settings because frequency balance can shift dramatically as a function of volume.

Be kind to your ears: when you're performing tests with SPL greater than around 80dB, wear hearing protection.

You may be surprised when you graph the decline in SPL as the distance from the loudspeaker increases; if you test by frequency, you'll notice that the bass frequencies will have different SPL readings, depending on where you take the measurements.

If you want to go whole hog, like I did when I was setting up my listening room, you can use a graphic equalizer to take SPL readings at each frequency and plot the results of your bass cabinet and listening room. I use a pink noise generator to provide a consistent reference for all room measurements (mine is built into my graphic equalizer).

If you find this exercise valuable, you'll probably also find it illuminating take third-octave measurements at different locations throughout a venue and see how significantly directionality increases with frequency, and how standing waves effect perception of bass frequencies.

If nothing else, it can be a fun learning experience; refining your awareness of relative SPL by frequency can be a genuine force multiplier in a bassist's arsenal of useful skills.

Sorry for such a long post.


simpy1 said:
Hey guys - thanks for all the replies.

Well my band doesn't play that loud, we play funk/soul music and usually it's quiet enough not to have to wear earplugs. We don't mic up the drums.

I saw a guy in the weekend playing with my same Trace amp thru a 1x15 at a party, and his volume was on 3. And this was the loudest (unmic'd) band I've ever heard! The bass sound was massive.

Funnily enough the EA sounds WAY louder than the SWR at the same volume level. Also funnily enough my TE is definitely louder than the power amp!

I'm thinking my problem could be that my bass really doesn't put out much low end (also not a very hot signal), so I end up EQ-ing in to compensate. The volume thing shouldn't matter, I just set the input gain to what it should be. The EQ thing I guess will make a big difference. But I don't add any 30 or 60 Hz, only freqs higher than that.

Also as a side note - I had my Trace amp serviced because I remember playing a gig ages ago and my volume on 3/10 was huge. I got asked to turn down (this is thru the Goliath Jr and a 1x15). The servicing did nothing for the volume difference, so maybe I'm just imagining that it's getting quieter!