VT Bass Deluxe Compresses Too Much?

[TonyP-]

Thanks for the info on this thread.
I have a VT deluxe coming in and tend to use the MXR compressor in front of my chain.
Looks like for higher drive settings I will be shutting it off first.

I'm going to take a healthy assumption that if I'm not engaging the VT at all but its in my chain that I using my MXR compressor would be fine (unless there is something to buffered output signal that does something to an already compressed signal).

tech21NYC I look forward towards your reply.

 

[jeff5311]

Please have a look at my old VT thread
Especially at Post 6, where I show how gain increase compresses the signal...

Cool. So at least my ears are not lying. I'm actually fine with the compression since that's what a tune amp kinda does. It's just that the compression ratio is too much or gain after the compression is too little. Maybe a blend would help a bit, but it would probably give me too little of the overdriven tone that I like.

I agree with others that the "sweet" spot for the drive knob is in that 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock range.

 

[jeff5311]

Thanks for the info on this thread.
I have a VT deluxe coming in and tend to use the MXR compressor in front of my chain.
Looks like for higher drive settings I will be shutting it off first.

I'm going to take a healthy assumption that if I'm not engaging the VT at all but its in my chain that I using my MXR compressor would be fine (unless there is something to buffered output signal that does something to an already compressed signal).

tech21NYC I look forward towards your reply.

That's interesting. I guess you could use a compressor after the VTD to bring the volume back up after it gets squashed by the VTD? Maybe?

 

[JimmyM]

Thanks for the info on this thread.
I have a VT deluxe coming in and tend to use the MXR compressor in front of my chain.
Looks like for higher drive settings I will be shutting it off first.

I'm going to take a healthy assumption that if I'm not engaging the VT at all but its in my chain that I using my MXR compressor would be fine (unless there is something to buffered output signal that does something to an already compressed signal).

tech21NYC I look forward towards your reply.

Well I'm not him but my advice would be to try it both ways and decide for yourself. Stuff like that is very personal, and you may like the extra compression on top of the VTD. Or not.

 

[TonyP-]

That's interesting. I guess you could use a compressor after the VTD to bring the volume back up after it gets squashed by the VTD? Maybe?

Hmmm...Not sure.
Thats why I'm hoping this guys get on.

Here is my current chain.

Tuner -> MXR Compressor (4-1 ratio usually)->Darkglass BK3->VT Deluxe-> Bassballs->Q-Tron->EBS Bass IQ->EBS Octabass-> DI –out to amp/house

If I use the BK3 I usually shut off the MXR first, if I'm not using the BK3 then the MXR is on all the time.

Right now the above is what using minus the VT Deluxe. I have a new gig that I could really use the VT and I would like to have a permanent set up pedal board.

 

[TonyP-]

Well I'm not him but my advice would be to try it both ways and decide for yourself. Stuff like that is very personal, and you may like the extra compression on top of the VTD. Or not.

Gotcha...
I have no problem shutting off the compressor for the overdrive sections...cool (I do that now for the little grit I use with the BK3...most of the time)

I'm just wondering since I know the VT is not true bypass does it squash the sound at all when not in use (say like I'm treating the VT like an effect pedal so to speak).

In other terms, will I retain my 'normal' sound compression wise if I'm not using the pedal BUT its in the chain?

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy, how loud are you running the SVT and with what speakers? What rig and volume level are you using with the VTDLX?

Was a 69 SVT from the very first run of SVT's into a 73 flatback 810, now it's a custom Heritage SVT-CL/810e I got a month ago (upgraded output transformer). I have a couple different rigs I'll use, too...64 B-15N, PF350 with one or two 210av's, BA110 when space is really tight. I always do my best to run the VTD at unity gain, and I have three graduated distortion settings I like to use. Did used to have a dead clean setting as well, but I decided I liked my clean setting in the SVT and B-15 by themselves better, and the VTD clean I like about the same as I do the smaller Ampeg stuff running clean. The little extra bit of compression I hear was the reason.

I'll be the first to admit it's being super nitpicky because it's such a slight difference, but hey...

 

[TonyP-]

I'll be the first to admit it's being super nitpicky because it's such a slight difference, but hey...

I hear you with that...
I know your not a fan of compression...I am actually. Subtle usage I thing is good for percussive players (like myself).

However if compression is overdone from more then one resource it can sound real bad.

 

[tech21nyc]

Thanks for the info on this thread.
I have a VT deluxe coming in and tend to use the MXR compressor in front of my chain.
Looks like for higher drive settings I will be shutting it off first.

I'm going to take a healthy assumption that if I'm not engaging the VT at all but its in my chain that I using my MXR compressor would be fine (unless there is something to buffered output signal that does something to an already compressed signal).

tech21NYC I look forward towards your reply.

You didn't mention which compressor so I will assume its the M87 which has a low Z output when engaged. The buffer in the the VT should not be a problem when the pedal (M87) is engaged. The problem that people experience at times when mixing True Bypass effects with buffered efx is that many TB effects (though having a low Z output) do not have a buffered output. This means that you're impedance keeps shifting and often times the tonality and level of the effect as well.

As others have suggested just experiment and see what works best for you. Much of it depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the compressor. If you are only using it as more of a subtle limiter to keep your dynamics in check it might work well into the VT engaged as well.

With any type of high gain circuit whether it be the VT or distortion pedal, any noise that is before it will be amplified a multitude of times. As long as you are aware of that you should be fine.

 

[TonyP-]

You didn't mention which compressor so I will assume its the M87 which has a low Z output when engaged. The buffer in the the VT should not be a problem when the pedal (M87) is engaged. The problem that people experience at times when mixing True Bypass effects with buffered efx is that many TB effects (though having a low Z output) do not have a buffered output. This means that you're impedance keeps shifting and often times the tonality and level of the effect as well.

As others have suggested just experiment and see what works best for you. Much of it depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the compressor. If you are only using it as more of a subtle limiter to keep your dynamics in check it might work well into the VT engaged as well.

With any type of high gain circuit whether it be the VT or distortion pedal, any noise that is before it will be amplified a multitude of times. As long as you are aware of that you should be fine.

Thanks tech21nyc folks
You are correct its the M87

Looks like there will be no issue then with the M87 and the VT deluxe.

I guess I'm going to have to experiment on the other end of the spectrum (output) though after the VT deluxe which will be going to a lot of true bypass pedals coming after it. (well if you consider 4 a lot)
Bassballs->Q-Tron->EBS Bass IQ->EBS Octabass-

I should have that pedal any day and I'm curious on the results.

 

[tech21nyc]

Was a 69 SVT from the very first run of SVT's into a 73 flatback 810, now it's a custom Heritage SVT-CL/810e I got a month ago (upgraded output transformer). I have a couple different rigs I'll use, too...64 B-15N, PF350 with one or two 210av's, BA110 when space is really tight. I always do my best to run the VTD at unity gain, and I have three graduated distortion settings I like to use. Did used to have a dead clean setting as well, but I decided I liked my clean setting in the SVT and B-15 by themselves better, and the VTD clean I like about the same as I do the smaller Ampeg stuff running clean. The little extra bit of compression I hear was the reason.

I'll be the first to admit it's being super nitpicky because it's such a slight difference, but hey...

It's not that I doubt your experience with the VT but it's hard to do a true comparison of the distortion and compression characteristics of the pedal vs the real amp without both devices being at the same volume level.

For instance when we speak on a mobile phone we are all aware of the tendency to speak louder than we normally do. The reason is that we are not hearing as well, so we speak louder to compensate. The same happens when we play and have reduced headroom which is a byproduct of distortion. You get to a point where no matter how hard you play the volume at a certain point stops getting louder, the sound becomes more saturated and distorted.

My point was that it's unlikely that if you had your SVT loud enough to get it as grindy as the VT DLX that you would be playing as hard with "that" amount of volume coming from 810's behind you.

To do a valid comparison (as we did in our video which was just for volume) you would need to set your SVT up to the point of clipping and compare the VT through the same amount of power and speakers.

When you say you have the VT set for unity gain how do you arrive at that setting? Do you play you're amp bypassed as hard as you can with a slapping technique and set the VT engaged to be as loud with the same technique only distorted? It's very hard to actually match the levels identically and it's even harder when using two sounds that are very different. Clean vs distorted. It also doesn't make sense to have a distorted sound at unity gain as this wouldn't really happen with most vintage amps. You can get the levels to a more manageable level but a real SVT with its volume at 10 o'clock wouldn't be at the same level as the same amp with the volume at 2 o'clock.

 

[JimmyM]

It's not that I doubt your experience with the VT but it's hard to do a true comparison of the distortion and compression characteristics of the pedal vs the real amp without both devices being at the same volume level.

For instance when we speak on a mobile phone we are all aware of the tendency to speak louder than we normally do. The reason is that we are not hearing as well, so we speak louder to compensate. The same happens when we play and have reduced headroom which is a byproduct of distortion. You get to a point where no matter how hard you play the volume at a certain point stops getting louder, the sound becomes more saturated and distorted.

My point was that it's unlikely that if you had your SVT loud enough to get it as grindy as the VT DLX that you would be playing as hard with "that" amount of volume coming from 810's behind you.

To do a valid comparison (as we did in our video which was just for volume) you would need to set your SVT up to the point of clipping and compare the VT through the same amount of power and speakers.

When you say you have the VT set for unity gain how do you arrive at that setting? Do you play you're amp bypassed as hard as you can with a slapping technique and set the VT engaged to be as loud with the same technique only distorted? It's very hard to actually match the levels identically and it's even harder when using two sounds that are very different. Clean vs distorted. It also doesn't make sense to have a distorted sound at unity gain as this wouldn't really happen with most vintage amps. You can get the levels to a more manageable level but a real SVT with its volume at 10 o'clock wouldn't be at the same level as the same amp with the volume at 2 o'clock.

I do realize all that and it's taken into consideration. I've run the VT in every config I can think of along with my SVT, including dead clean with unity gain (and that's exactly how I set unity gain for clean sounds), and I can still notice a tiny bit of compression. At least I did the last time I tried it. Also compared it to the REDDI and got much the same result. Not trying to be offensive or anything here, bro...like I said before, it's not very noticeable unless I'm plugged into my tube amps or the REDDI...just telling you what I hear.

Turning up an SVT on a gig to 10:00 would get me canned faster than getting sloppy drunk all the time, BTW

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

The REDDI must be good , because holy freakin crap that thing is expensive........

 

[JimmyM]

The REDDI must be good , because holy freakin crap that thing is expensive........

The REDDI is super and worth every cent IMHO. It's quite literally a tube amp built into DI form. I'm just one of those people who never understood wanting a high end bass and amp only to plug it into some $30 DI the soundman keeps at the bottom of a milk crate.

I also got a super deal on it from a friend

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

The REDDI is super and worth every cent IMHO. It's quite literally a tube amp built into DI form. I'm just one of those people who never understood wanting a high end bass and amp only to plug it into some $30 DI the soundman keeps at the bottom of a milk crate.

I also got a super deal on it from a friend

Hit me up if you have a good deal....

 

[tech21nyc]

I do realize all that and it's taken into consideration. I've run the VT in every config I can think of along with my SVT, including dead clean with unity gain (and that's exactly how I set unity gain for clean sounds), and I can still notice a tiny bit of compression. At least I did the last time I tried it. Also compared it to the REDDI and got much the same result. Not trying to be offensive or anything here, bro...like I said before, it's not very noticeable unless I'm plugged into my tube amps or the REDDI...just telling you what I hear.

Turning up an SVT on a gig to 10:00 would get me canned faster than getting sloppy drunk all the time, BTW

I do believe your experience but like I said its extremely hard to test it in the manner you suggest as you are running amp emulation into a another amp's preamp section and that confuses the issue. That's why we use test equipment. It's way easier running a signal generator and looking at the wave form on a scope to determine what's happening versus trying to actually play and come to an accurate conclusion.

Anyway it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. If you think the pedal is more compressed so be it. As you stated, turning up a real SVT to get distortion will get you fired and to me that's how I decide what gear gets used. I bring my tube amps when they can be utilized properly, I'll use our stuff when I know bringing a loud tube amp is a waste of time or I need to do tracks at a home studio and they can't deal with mic'ing etc.