What do you get for the money in higher end interfaces ?

[Frank Tuesday]

well, thanks for your input but I kind of feel like you have a pretty overtly negative outlook on Focusrite and PreSonus given your recent comment in another thread about them being junk without offering much more solid information.

OTOH, two seemingly knowledgeable members have suggested the converters on this level of gear are actually pretty decent, but the pre's may not be quite as excellent as higher end units.

And as far as pre's go, Frank Tuesday has said (and Silky Smoove appears to agree) that any number of stand alone mic pre's will be better than those found even on higher end integrated interfaces. I'm looking at a few stand alone pres now, so we'll see what that turns up.

You can make great recordings on the consumer Focusrite stuff. YEs, the higher end ADCs are significantly better. But if you don't have the rest of the gear on the same level, there isn't much point. If you're making your living competing against high end studios by doing remote session bass work, I'd invest in ADCs from Burl, Lynx, etc. If you're doing home recordings for friends and cheapskates on Fiverr, I wouldn't.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

Actually it's simpler than all that.

1) Latency
2) A to D and D to A conversion
3) Wordclock and Jitter stability
4) Physical connectivity options

Personally I'm all about RME these days.

Dirk

RME is great. I still use the DIGI 9652 cards from 1999. Still work flawlessly, but only up to Win7 32bit. So I live track with them and then reboot to Win10-64 for mixing through an different interface. Really thinking about the Digiface USB.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

I don't know what to tell ya. I offered my opinion based on my personal experience. I've owned 6-8 interfaces over the years. Initially I too felt stuff like Focusrite and Presonus were OK. Then after upgrading, and especially buying fairly good monitors, I had an "oh sh*t, this isn't a tad better, it's wayyyy better" experience. But your playback system has to be good enough to hear the difference. Having had that personal epiphany, I believe strongly that obsessing over pres when the converters aren't up to the task is a waste of time and money.

You're gonna do what you're gonna do. And apparently, you're going to give greater weight to opinions that support the decision you've already made.

I shall stop offering my opinion. Vaya con dios, amigo.

PS: I didn't realize that you'd started an entirely new thread on this. Had you merely continued your previous thread, I never would have posted.

I said that the Focusrite ADCs were "pretty good", while acknowledging that there are better options. But those better options requires a treated and tuned room, with other similar quality gear to match. So we basically gave the same answer on ADCs, but you provided no context or explanation. If someone is looking for help, "Better everything, but especially converters" isn't a very useful answer, even if it is true.

 

[Biggbass]

I'll lend some input but first let me share some background so you'll have a gauge on how much credibility it might bring to your considerations:

I started producing professionally in 1972 using the technology of the era and evolved with the recording technology to an eventual transition to digital in 1996, when I first purchased Pro Tools. It's been a solid format for me so I've stayed with it, working the system with consoles, controllers, ITB, with and without Digi/Avid hardware.

In that time I've produced just about everything that can be recorded and produced in a studio environment. From full albums or various genres to single song sessions, from advertising jingles to VO narration, audio books, yoga instruction, guitar lessons, Foley & SFX, and even tap dancing lessons. When you're in the studio business you are in the business of booking sessions so it doesn't matter what the content is as long as it keep the power on.

Regarding digital recording: Like everything else chipset dependent, converters and I/O boxes have evolved extensively over the years. My evaluation is that the the on board, factory features of the mid price range systems sound very good. They're not uber-high end quality but they sound very good. But like cell phones, things have come a long, long way since the first one.

You've already done your home work on the tech specs of various DAW hardware options and have an understanding of what makes a system work, so what it really comes down to is your budget. You can spend a little or spend a lot. But unless you are working high end in a pro level studio with a full systems console, you'll never hear the difference between a lower and higher end system, especially in a home studio setup. Other than the artist and engineer talents & skills, much of what you do hear when listening to professionally recorded music is a result of the console, the room, and the mastering.

Six years ago I changed hardware to a non Avid/Digi on board DSP processed system and have been using a UA Apollo quad Thunderbolt with Pro Tools and mixing ITB. It sounds great, is fast, computer efficient, and a great sounding system. And I've always run my systems on a Mac. However, I also have some good mics. FWIW remember that any system will record whatever you send into it. So the better the source signal the better the recording. Good mics = good recordings. And a well treated room = a better recording. Also, it' helps greatly to have a good set of well tuned audio monitors so you can hear what you are recording without any artificial coloring of the playback.

I also find the plug in versions of the high end compressors and effects units to be just as effective so if you have the funds, don't be shy of purchasing some quality effects plug ins...you'll use the heck out of them and tend to shy away from the cheap or free ones.

So what does this all boil down to? Scarlett or Forssell converters, or something in between? Pro Tools or Cakewalk or something in between? They all accomplish the same thing in the end. The answer is; buy what your budget allows and get to creating.

BTW: If you have a UA Apollo hardware unit the UA DAW - LUNA - is free. And you can get a lot done with something as simple as an Apollo Twin.

 

[Weberman]

You can do a lot with low-cost gear. One of the things that I find to be a problem is cheap interfaces tend to have a lot of phase and transient issues. What I mean is that you kind of fight a certain fogginess to really get the clarity and detail you usually want. "Smearing" is usually how people describe it. They also seem a little congested, too.

Software, these days, does a tremendous job of getting you the harmonics and response of real-deal preamps and transformers. You can clean up a lot of junk with surgical plugins. Bad converters are harder to overcome.

As others have mentioned, though, the best hardware in the world is useless if your room is garbage. No amount of software will fix a bad room: especially nulls. Treat your room accordingly.

 

[fishdreams]

I've got the ISA, Demeter VTDB-201, Retrospec Juicebox & Squeezebox. They're all great, and they all get used. I hope my earlier comment didn't come across as dismissing the ISA DI. I just meant that if he already has a great DI which he's happy with the sound, another flavor of DI might be less important than another piece of gear that might be more useful.

Oh no, not all. I just wanted to share my own experience with the ISA One, i didn't mean to adjust or critique your wonderful contribution in any way what so ever.

Here's what I used/abused as DIs to record the same bass part in my (unscientific) test.
Hooked up into a Focusrite Clarett 4Pre line in > Logic Pro X > same bass and same bass line

• Focusrite ISA One - for me the 1st choice, best balance between rounded out low end, all-across clarity and transparency, and presence aka 'big tone'
• Arkham Abyss - tube pre. Much to my surprise sounding substantially thinner than the gooey thickness I remembered from using it previously, and even a bit thinner than the ISA One. I'm pretty certain this can do substantially better than I got out of it in the test. Maybe I had a mismatch with output/input sensitivity, maybe I missed a setting, or I need to check/replace the tube.
• Quilter 802 Bass Block DI - not bad, but as a serious recording DI, a last resort as far as I am concerned
• Golden Age Project Pre-73 Jr - If you want that Jaco burp from your jazz, this does it, total Teen Town. For the DI alone, a steal at the price, if you are after that tone. And a nifty mic pre .
• Black Lion Audio B12A MK2 . I really liked this, actually. Somewhere between the Pre 73 and the ISA One, in that it kicks some serious butt (as in punchy) in the low end, while fairly clean all the same. haven't really recorded with it yet, but it was between this and the ISA One, as far as I was concerned. ISA One won because of being warmer while still transparent. But still this si lovely DI, probably very good for in-your-face rockish bass work, that deserves more exploration from my end.

 

[silky smoove]

Black Lion Audio B12A MK2 . I really liked this, actually. Somewhere between the Pre 73 and the ISA One, in that it kicks some serious butt (as in punchy) in the low end

This doesn’t surprise me at all considering it’s BLA’s take on an API 312 style of preamp. Basically anything with an API flavor to it is mid-forward, super punchy and just oozes that “kick you in the chest” kind of authority that works well on a lot of sources. I’ve been very impressed with everything BLA builds and mods. Very cool company.

 

[pfschim]

thanks to all for your inputs to my original question about what qualities are gained by the cost associated with "better" gear. I'm still interested in understanding what the key metrics are when comparing audio recording gear. It also seems to me that, like with many discussions about musical equipment, there is a certain subjective element involved vs straight forward metric compares ... i.e. "I like the sound of this better than that". It's all good, we are not just engineers, but also creative types, so the subjective certainly has a place in our world.

Just to reiterate, I am simply doing bass tracks for songwriters I work with in more non-pandemic/socially distanced times. Some of the songs and tracks are fairly simple and are assembled in similarly basic home recording systems by the songwriters or someone they work with. But others are on a pro level and are assembled/finalized in pro level studios. I am not competing with anyone for this work (at least as far as I know at the moment ), but for my own satisfaction I do want to produce good solid, technically high quality tracks that meet the songwriters needs and will not get scoffed at over qualitative issues in the pro studios when they end up in that environment.

So far I have had nothing but positive feedback on the technical quality of the tracks (even when I did the first few using my 10+ year old gen1 Focusrite 18i6), and I feel as if the quality went up as I moved to the gen3 18i8 and also better dialed in my existing outboard signal chain. I remain very interested in any meaningful improvements I can make to my existing set-up. I have the financial resources to buy pretty much anything within reason .... BUT ... I have long maintained that simply throwing money at stuff does not necessarily result in "better" results ... it's much better for me to do things in an informed way in order to get better results. That way, I get a little smarter as well as possibly getting better outcomes.

so, again, much appreciation to all for the informed input and insight.

 

[pfschim]

You can make great recordings on the consumer Focusrite stuff. YEs, the higher end ADCs are significantly better. But if you don't have the rest of the gear on the same level, there isn't much point. If you're making your living competing against high end studios by doing remote session bass work, I'd invest in ADCs from Burl, Lynx, etc. If you're doing home recordings for friends and cheapskates on Fiverr, I wouldn't.

I am tracking in my home studio/practice space which is not an audio specific room in any way, although coincidentally it does sound ok. I'm also monitoring only through headphones (Sennheiser HD280 Pro) at the moment, although I am researching nearfield monitors at the same time as I ask these questions about interfaces/pre's and the associated specs.

I don't have the goal of setting up a pro level studio, just to have the ability to produce technically clean and clear bass tracks to satisfy the needs of the songwriters I work with (who I also worked with before all the pandemic/social distancing thing happened).