What is the sound engineer's job?

[Sleeping Giant]

What is the sound engineer's job?

Is it to make the band sound great and do his best to help convey a great performance? Should he do exactly as the band members ask? In effect he would be acting as an employee of the band and not the venue he works for.

You will get the best performance from a musician if he is happy and comfortable. If the sound man more or less ignores what you want and sets the sound how he thinks is best and not how the band thinks is best the performance will be substandard as the band members are unhappy.

You could argue that musicians are not experts in settings up live sound and should leave it to the man whose job it is. The trouble is that the sound engineers frequently have to set the sound night after night for many different bands and lose the excitement and consequently the interest in working meticulously to get a great sound. Bass players are the first to be affected by this as bass sound is considered pretty much standard across musical styles and the bloke on the desk might just leave it set the same every night.

The thing is you have to keep him happy because if you argue to get the sound you want you could just pi55 him off and then he really won't give a damn about your sound.

Gentlemen, he has us by the ba11s. Ladies, I don't know how he has you...

 

[Vinny D]

I suggest everyone that complains about soundmen should go try it for a few months....then come back and see if you still feel the same way

There is more to it then just pleasing the band....when you are on a world wide stadium tour it's a bit of a different story.
But lets be honest, just about everyone here is playing local bars.
On the local scene you are dealing with venue owners that only care about making money from people coming into there place......period.
They don't care if the band is the best thing since sliced bread, if there are no people in there venue....you suck.
You also have to deal with volume levels, yeah it's cool to want your sound...but when your sound conflicts with what the venue owner wants to maintain for a volume level *your* sound may soon become a thing of the past.

The sound engineers job is to please everyone...not just the band...not just the venue.

This always seems to be the big issue with newbies, they always seem to think the big bad soundman is screwing them over.
All I can say is...go watch the same bad soundman work with a band that knows what there doing and the results are....well....go see

I always tell my clients that hire my services for sound that I am NOT a miracle worker.
There are no magic dials or buttons on my gear.
It's pretty simple..crap in is crap out, if you sound good...you will sound great through my gear....if you sound like *ss...you will sound like *ss amplified 10x louder

 

[Phalex]

The soundman. the band, and even the venue all work for the same people. The audience.

The band is there to entertain the audience, the sound guy is there to ensure that the audience get's a sonically pleasing band experience, and the venue is there to pull all that and a lot of intangibles together to make it worth the money the audience spends to see the band in a sonically pleasing, relatively safe environment.

Every room is different, and the levels from every band are going to be variable too.

Personally, I don't worry about anything FOH. I focus on my performance and trust that the sound guy is focusing on his.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The soundguy is kinda like Jesus. You just have to let go and trust him.

 

[Bardley]

As a sound man first, bass player second, I feel that the sound engineers job is a bit of both conveying a great performance and pleasing your employer (usually the venue or promoter). You have to realize that the sound man is not just there to please you, but that you get pressure from all sides, venue, patrons, promoters, band members, etc. You can never please all of those people. You are also usually fighting a sub-standard room and simply trying to make things manageable.
There's a lot of truth to the old joke, "What's the difference between a sound tech and a Port-o-John? The Port-o-John only has to take s*** from one a**hole at a time."

Best advice is to be calm and talk to the sound tech early when you arrive, not from the stage during soundcheck. Calmly explain what you guys need and ask if he can make most of it happen. Be willing to compromise because not all venues can do everything. Main thing is to keep your composure and be professional. I know if someone does that with me I will go out of my way to help them if I can.

 

[ric stave]

Just like musicians, there are talented sound engineers and there are fader pushers who don't have a clue.

There are too many different situations to give a blanket answer as to WHO the sound tech is actually working for - the venue, the band, the audience.... ultimately, it's EVERYONE - and that's not always an easy thing. For example, many years ago I was hired by a band to provide and run a system in a small club. I had played this club with my band, so I knew the place and the owner. The band was not very good, the singer couldn't sing well, she didn't project, and when she couldn't hit notes she mouthed it and then blamed the soundperson (me) for f****** her on purpose (over the mic... uh, hmmmmm..... I can hear you NOW, while you're b******* about it...) That aside, the band wanted auditorium volume in a small narrow club. They kept telling me to turn up, the owner kept telling me to turn down. When I had it at a level the owner was happy with, the band decided I was f****** them, and cranked all their instruments up. This of course didn't help the bad/weak singer situation in any way.

End result? Band wasn't happy, owner wasn't happy, and the audience suffered for all of it, and you can imagine how I felt. But on the brighter side, the club never had the band back, and the next year when the band couldn't get sound for another gig (because this B**** apparently treated EVERY sound engineer the same way she treated me), I was called to do sound for them through my booking agent - I reminded him about the previous time, and since they couldn't find sound, my band got the gig instead. Payback's a B****, just like the singer.... lol.

I've worked with guys who know what they are doing and are ready for anything, and I've worked with (been stuck with) guys who don't know the difference between the fader and the gain, or that the input channel gain affects both the main AND monitor mix on the same board. I also see many posts from guys in bands whining about how they work very hard to get a certain sound and are pissed cuz the soundguy won't triple mic their rig to get the same sound out front, usually for a 10 min changeover 4 song on and out multiband show that's SUPPOSED to be shared backline. And somehow, because newbee bass guy doesn't understand the logistics of these shows, the sound tech is the bad guy.

As a band member, learn to work WITH the sound guy(s), whether you know them or hired them or not - trust them to do their job, talk with them and give them info on what your band is about and what you're trying to accomplish sound and show-wise, but edjamacate yourself on their side of the process so you know what's reasonable and what's bigtime fantasy as far as requests and expectations.

Just my .02, coming from both sides over 30 years.....

 

[MNAirHead]

Many times folks who bash sound engineers are inexperienced GarageBand fools

In 99 percent of venues they report to the cash register (till count,brides, patrons etc)

Frequently they do not have adequate time or gear to deliver personal requests

This is especially true with garage band billings ( multiple acts with one set )

Their job is to fine tune and hone the hierarchy ....and blend a suitable mix

Bass players are notorious for complaining about a bedroom tone that isn't spectrum based

I like the suggestion to run sound before a silly bashing thread

 

[Never_grew_up]

Sound person's job is to manage expectations within limitations.
1st thing I do when I run sound is concentrate on the stage/monitor mix. I ask the band what they want in the monitors, and try to get their stage volume manageable. If there are limitations in the system - like only 1 aux send for monitors, only 2 12" floor wedges for the whole stage, limited supply of mics, stands, cables, under-powered FOH, etc. I explain what I can do for them within those limitations.
Then I ask again after I've set them up if they're happy with it and make whatever tweaks I can to give them what they want/need. They see me as 'on their side' because I ask what they want & try to give it to them. Then I deal with FOH and making whatever mix adjustments I need to there. If the club owner tells me it's too loud, I turn it down & tell the band it's at the club owner's request.

 

[fokof]

Is it to make the band sound great and do his best to help convey a great performance? Should he do exactly as the band members ask? In effect he would be acting as an employee of the band and not the venue he works for.

Like I always say : It all depends on who's paying who.

If you are on tour , chances are you hire your own soundman.
His main job is to answer to you.
Then , he has to deal with the "Chief sound" of the venue you're in that night and that sound guy is hired by the venue so his job is to protect the equipement and assist YOUR soundman. He's gonna be baby sitting all night your soundman telling him to lower the overall volume etc...
( Then your soundman could blame it on the local guy )

Even if you have your own soundman , he may have 'cues' from the record company/label/producers to mix a certain way and maybe even the band doesn't like it that way. Been there......

You will get the best performance from a musician if he is happy and comfortable.

Agreed totally

If the sound man more or less ignores what you want and sets the sound how he thinks is best and not how the band thinks is best the performance will be substandard as the band members are unhappy.

There are factor you have to know here if you don't do sound yourself. The soundman (yours , the venue's) have to deal with room acoustics and the equipement he's working on. More often than not , there are also Decibel limitations. ( City laws usually)
If I mix a band in a very small room wich are likely to have a small PA and the band plays @ Metallica volumes , chances are nobody will get out happy.
We all work together FOR THE PUBLIC.
If in order to obtain a good FOH sound the band has to compromise and lower the volume then so be it.
The soundman cannot miraculously transform the bar in a concert hall with a line array.
It's always possible to lower a volume.

IME beginners are unable to do that and it's never a problem with seasoned pros.

You could argue that musicians are not experts in settings up live sound and should leave it to the man whose job it is. The trouble is that the sound engineers frequently have to set the sound night after night for many different bands and lose the excitement and consequently the interest in working meticulously to get a great sound. Bass players are the first to be affected by this as bass sound is considered pretty much standard across musical styles and the bloke on the desk might just leave it set the same every night.

This is true for everybody.
I have a friend who played bass on the same show for 12 years , guess what ?

The thing is you have to keep him happy because if you argue to get the sound you want you could just pi55 him off and then he really won't give a damn about your sound.

Gentlemen, he has us by the ba11s. Ladies, I don't know how he has you...

I don't agree with this.
What happens is that some are better than others , some venues have better equipement than others , mix/match those two variable and you can have dreamish gig and nightmarish gigs.

And BTW , there are loads and loads and loads of suçky band out there ......... just think about that too.

EDIT: as a rule of thumb , just hire your own soundman , if you're not happy , just fire him.

 

[MNAirHead]

A good house engineer will mix to the customer's preferences... not yours.

 

[ggunn]

There have been lot of good responses already. I'll just add that although musicians often accuse sound persons of intentionally torpedoing their performance over petty blsht when things are less than ideal, it rarely happens. That's like saying that as a bass player you might deliberately play wrong notes out of time to make the band sound bad because you are p!$$ed at the lead singer.

 

[TimmyP]

Many mixpersons aren't as good as they think they are (your's truly included most likely). Many musicians aren't as good as they think they are. Many musicians have a tone or tones that is/are not as good as the musician thinks (many just plain suck).

 

[Phalex]

Many mixpersons aren't as good as they think they are (your's truly included most likely). Many musicians aren't as good as they think they are. Many musicians have a tone or tones that is/are not as good as the musician thinks (many just plain suck).

I shall call you "Sir" from this day forward! Great post!

 

[Bardley]

There have been lot of good responses already. I'll just add that although musicians often accuse sound persons of intentionally torpedoing their performance over petty blsht when things are less than ideal, it rarely happens. That's like saying that as a bass player you might deliberately play wrong notes out of time to make the band sound bad because you are p!$$ed at the lead singer.

I agree with this. I would never do something like that on purpose as a sound tech because, guess what, I want to be hired again, too. If the sound truly sucks, you might not be asked back.

I try to give any client I mix for my best effort. Some bands just expect stadium tour grade treatment from a crappy bar and others expect you to polish a turd, which never works out well.

I absolutely love the feeling of mixing a show when things are clicking and the people are into it but trying to mix a horrible band that can't even keep their instruments in tune is just awful. That's when you just want the show to end.

 

[Munjibunga]

I've had the good fortune to work with some excellent sound men. Usually the only thing I tell them is that I want the vocals on top. I've never had to complain about the overall mix.

On the other hand, I've been to plenty of concerts of A-level acts at which the sound man just sucked. Usually its because he has so much bass in the mix, it's all you can hear.

 

[4Mal]

I've had the good fortune to work with some excellent sound men. Usually the only thing I tell them is that I want the vocals on top. I've never had to complain about the overall mix.

On the other hand, I've been to plenty of concerts of A-level acts at which the sound man just sucked. Usually its because he has so much bass in the mix, it's all you can hear.

Ditto that...

Seems like some sound guys come to it from a car stereo background

Saw Jerry Jeff Walker the other night. Outside. Smallish venue maybe 500 capacity, blanket on lawn seating, room to dance up front (well if you can dance to 'Up Against The Wall Red Neck Mother' and 'Mister Bojangles'). Sound at the board was OK. Almost anywhere else it was pathetic. Sound guy was running 4 15's per side, on stage as the bottom .. sub's on stage ? I guess if you have to but in my book not if you don't absolutely have to ... Then 2 line array boxes stacked on top. Those LA boxes have at best at 15 degree horizontal dispersion and maybe 100 to 120 horizontal. So here they are on top of a 4' tall sub woofer stack, on top of a 5 to 6 foot stage. Basically people in the first 100 feet could hear - sub's - Total venue depth - maybe 150 feet to the board at the back. This guy screwed himself to the floor before he even turned on the amps... all the guy had to do to fix it was to provide a set of in fills for the front. So near, yet so far away ...

Scary part is that he was the one telling me about how those LA boxes work; The dispersion #'s and how long they throw. (Duh! You ever think about aiming them down where the people are then ? or should they all just gather around the board?)

Scarier yet is that he's mixing a show I have upcoming ... I did mention that maybe he should think about some in fill's for the up front crowd...
My fav trick for making bass players happy - bring the U5 ... heck it makes me happy too!


BTW - Jerry Jeff's band was stellar and his bass player is a beast! They did Bojangles as a 6/8 swing feel - the guy just lit it up! I called him on it at the end and he went, 'Oh I can Root 5 with all of 'em, Jerry wasn't feeelin' it that early so he turned me loose...' To me it was like the Ray Brown version! Bojangles with 6/8 bass leads and solo's - who'dathunk it.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Many mixpersons aren't as good as they think they are (your's truly included most likely). Many musicians aren't as good as they think they are. Many musicians have a tone or tones that is/are not as good as the musician thinks (many just plain suck).

+10

I'm a bassist who also runs sound. In 40+ years, most of the musicians I've worked with have known far too little about how on-stage sound translates to FOH, and even less about the rigors of mixing and sound reinforcement; most seasoned mixpersons have learned to be wary of musicians who know far less about sound than they think they do.

 

[Jazzdogg]

<SNIP> I've been to plenty of concerts of A-level acts at which the sound man just sucked. Usually its because he has so much bass in the mix, it's all you can hear.

+100

At most shows, I feel as though the soundman is trying to bludgeon the audience with sub-woofers, and there's almost always too much kick drum.

 

[QweziRider]

My approach is the sound person does not tell me how to play bass (beyond the requisite "please turn your amp down" if it's on the loud side) and I do not tell him or her how to do their job (outside of "could I have a little more or less of this and that in my monitor, please?"). On stage, I am in no position to determine what sounds good and what does not in the house, therefore, my input is not required unless specifically asked for.

In thirty years of playing live, using this approach, I have run into precisely one sound person who I considered an ass at the time over how to approach a particular scenario, and I knew him to be an ass in general long before he worked the gig for us. And even then, after the disagreement, it was still muddle through with a smile because the audience does not care that I'm pissed at the sound person.

 

[fokof]

My approach is the sound person does not tell me how to play bass...and I do not tell him or her how to do their job .... On stage, I am in no position to determine what sounds good and what does not in the house, therefore, my input is not required unless specifically asked for.

^^^^^
What he says


I play bass for 35 years and mix for 25 years.

When I play , I don't even mention that also do sound as a living.
I ask the guy where my XLR is and I'll do my requests on the sound check, that's it.
I don't even go in front anymore.

If the soundperson starts to tell me what to play , then maybe I'll go in front to check the mix......

 

[rockstarbassist]

As much as possible, to make everything heard at a pleasant level in the mix.
Soundmen need to be not so afraid of the bass. It's what makes the music big and phat and if you're playing club/dance/top 40 kinda stuff, usually drives the tune. So completely gutting the bass and only hearing the "thwack" of the floor toms and kick is pretty FTL.

However, a lot of beginner/intermediate bassists have no clue how to adjust their tone and playing to fit said mix so it's a constant battle.
And I've helped behind the desk/console for quite a few years as well, and at times I forget I was probably at some point that jack@-- kid on stage asking for the bass to be cranked when the mix just becomes total sludge. I think both soundmen and bassists alike would do well to learn the "hot spot" EQ points or frequencies. Once I got that down, it's been much smoother sailing. I have no problem telling the soundguy "If you could fade out some 100hz and below and boost me some 250 and 600hz if you have it for some mids, the bass will be less sloppy and everyone can hear me better and we all /win." Simple enough w/ the right and competent guy.