Thanks Ed. Lucid, as always. (Well, I don't know you -- you're always lucid around here anyway!)
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Double Bass what's a preamp do?
- Thread starter greitzer
- Start date
Well I was'nt referring to you particularly - but I think you have to live in the "real world" where some of us are not playing with great musicians who are all listening and playing as quietly as the situation demands.
OK - so I have no doubt that YOU can play un-amped and get it to work, as I said. But having attended many workshops, classes etc with beginners to bass; I think remarks like this are going to be fairly disheartening for somebody who is struggling to be heard.
I mean - I go to Jazz gigs every week and in the last 4 or 5 years I have only come across one DB Player who didn't use an amp - I think that you have to face the fact that most Jazz DBers use amps and that those who don't are honorable exceptions - you and whoever are great guys holding the eternal flame!!!
But to suggest to somebody struggling with the situation should just spend another ten years getting their sound to "project" is basically unhelpful - no matter how noble an objective!!
So I see newbie DB players every week and what helps the most is getting the amp so that they can hear - then they can work on all the other stuff with their teacher in their own time.
But as I say it is very disheartening if you go along to a big Jazz band, if nobody can hear you and you spend all your time thinking about this, rather than enjoying the experience and finding out how great it is to be playing this music with other people!!
Bruce: "I'm just trying to be practical so that I can be heard amongst the heathen."
Ed: "The amp is temporary fix that will prevent you from getting the big sound you know you want, and there is no shortage of real-life examples where this works."
In my rather limited DB experience (about 5 years now, including some gigging with it) I've found there's a big difference between being able to hear myself and others being able to hear me. All I need to do is take a smoke break and listen to my pal Rickie play my bass (what a great bass player...) That thing can be heard/felt upstairs, downstairs, outside where I'm smoking. And my bass is a piece of crap, and so's my tone for the most part!
I know what you're saying Bruce, and ya gotta be practical. What I've found in practice, though, is that once people start complaining about not being able to hear and they start turning up / playing louder, that's when the trouble starts. It gets even worse when ya got horn players and drummers in a small room. Anything you can do to stop that vicious circle from breeding is a good thing in the long run.
As a DB beginner, I thought I needed amplification for monitoring. I was wrong. I needed to listen harder and know the tunes better.
If it's really, really loud, protect your ears. Seriously, get protection. My left ear is kinda wrecked from years having it pressed up against a high-hat.
Ed: "The amp is temporary fix that will prevent you from getting the big sound you know you want, and there is no shortage of real-life examples where this works."
In my rather limited DB experience (about 5 years now, including some gigging with it) I've found there's a big difference between being able to hear myself and others being able to hear me. All I need to do is take a smoke break and listen to my pal Rickie play my bass (what a great bass player...) That thing can be heard/felt upstairs, downstairs, outside where I'm smoking. And my bass is a piece of crap, and so's my tone for the most part!
I know what you're saying Bruce, and ya gotta be practical. What I've found in practice, though, is that once people start complaining about not being able to hear and they start turning up / playing louder, that's when the trouble starts. It gets even worse when ya got horn players and drummers in a small room. Anything you can do to stop that vicious circle from breeding is a good thing in the long run.
As a DB beginner, I thought I needed amplification for monitoring. I was wrong. I needed to listen harder and know the tunes better.
If it's really, really loud, protect your ears. Seriously, get protection. My left ear is kinda wrecked from years having it pressed up against a high-hat.
I think a lot of people underestimate the carrying power of a bass (well, a decent bass), and get fooled by bandstand volume versus room volume.
Case in point:I visited a smallish venue last night that had a quartet, friends of mine. The bass player was a younger guy and wasn't using an amp--just his hybrid bass. I stood at the end of the bar about halfway across the room and I could hear everything just fine, including the bass.
At the break, the bass player was worried that maybe he should've brought his amp. I assured him that the volume was more than adequate.
I then sat in on his bass, and from the bandstand, I initially thought that I wasn't loud enough. I was afraid that this young whippersnapper was kickin' my @ss volume-wise, and I started digging in hard! But afterwards, he said, "Man, I never knew my bass was so loud!"
Case in point:I visited a smallish venue last night that had a quartet, friends of mine. The bass player was a younger guy and wasn't using an amp--just his hybrid bass. I stood at the end of the bar about halfway across the room and I could hear everything just fine, including the bass.
At the break, the bass player was worried that maybe he should've brought his amp. I assured him that the volume was more than adequate.
I then sat in on his bass, and from the bandstand, I initially thought that I wasn't loud enough. I was afraid that this young whippersnapper was kickin' my @ss volume-wise, and I started digging in hard! But afterwards, he said, "Man, I never knew my bass was so loud!"
Just to set the layout, I play with a pickup when I want to, I play with a mic when I want to, and I bet I play with an amp more than Ed does. If I was playing a bunch of solos with a big band, I'd be inclined to bring an amp.
Most DB players learn to play with the blinkin' Simandl method, taking advantage of the highest level of 1920 pedagogy. That doesn't make it smart for everybody.
You don't have to play with great musicians to find people who listen. I'd rather play with mediocre musicians that listen than great ones who don't. Heck, you can help people to listen by saying things like, "Yo, Ace, listen up!" or somewhat more discrete renditions of the same.
Slippery slope. Is it disheartening and unhelpful when someone is told to learn the tune and get their bloody head out of the book? It takes years to learn tunes, but ya gotta do it if you want to master the instrument and the music. Pulling the sound is at the top of the list of those things. It doesn't have to take 10 years, as shown by the fact that our orchestrally-inclined brothers and sisters take it up from day one. But it doesn't start until you start.
Most DB players learn to play with the blinkin' Simandl method, taking advantage of the highest level of 1920 pedagogy. That doesn't make it smart for everybody.
I don't teach, so I'm in no position to pontificate about 'what helps newbies the most.'
Yep. People definitely psych themselves out of a lot of enjoyable experiences in this life. As for me, there are few things I've enjoyed more then driving a big band. It's been about five years -- my loss.
How about this to make everyone happy--Greeter should use a pre-amp, but not plug it into the power amp. Wouldn't that work?
That big curvy box down at the end of the fingerboard is capable of making a lot of sound if you spend some time learning how to pull it outta there. It still surprises me sometimes!
I personally feel that I play way more in tune when unplugged. Like Ed says, it's a combination of everything all landing in the right place at the right time, and you'll know when you have it right. And as Mike points out, a lot of that sound happens way out in front of the bass, which can lead a player to feel that the bass is too quiet in the onstage mix. If you never play live without an amp, you're missing the essence of what the bass really sounds like, and you're also possibly missing a real chance of listening and interacting with the other boys and girls onstage with you.
I personally feel that I play way more in tune when unplugged. Like Ed says, it's a combination of everything all landing in the right place at the right time, and you'll know when you have it right. And as Mike points out, a lot of that sound happens way out in front of the bass, which can lead a player to feel that the bass is too quiet in the onstage mix. If you never play live without an amp, you're missing the essence of what the bass really sounds like, and you're also possibly missing a real chance of listening and interacting with the other boys and girls onstage with you.
People:
To go back to my original post from a few days ago-I saw Richard Davis at the Vanguard back in the Dark Ages playing unamped.It sounded great.He was standing in front of the band.The vibe was very acoustic -oriented.I saw the band there about ten years ago.The bassist was Ray Drummond-another fantastic player with a wonderful sound.He was in the back of the band(or at least not in front).He used an amp.
Believe me,I have no personal ax to grind on this issue.I'm a full-time professional player.I"ve been doing this for a long time.I play amplified ,unamplified-I don't care one way or the other.If you guys feel that playing without an amp is that big a deal ,go for it .When the leader says "I can't hear the bass"that's your problem.One more thing-Ed,I didn't make fun of your name until you made fun of mine.Aren't we a little old for that?
To go back to my original post from a few days ago-I saw Richard Davis at the Vanguard back in the Dark Ages playing unamped.It sounded great.He was standing in front of the band.The vibe was very acoustic -oriented.I saw the band there about ten years ago.The bassist was Ray Drummond-another fantastic player with a wonderful sound.He was in the back of the band(or at least not in front).He used an amp.
Believe me,I have no personal ax to grind on this issue.I'm a full-time professional player.I"ve been doing this for a long time.I play amplified ,unamplified-I don't care one way or the other.If you guys feel that playing without an amp is that big a deal ,go for it .When the leader says "I can't hear the bass"that's your problem.One more thing-Ed,I didn't make fun of your name until you made fun of mine.Aren't we a little old for that?
I'm not saying anything about how to play the DB - as you say , I have no experience on that side - I was just trying to be supportive to a fellow bass player who is struggling - and I have seen a lot of that over the last 4 or 5 years!!
As I said - I do agree with your advice "in principle" and the Jazz teachers I have met would probably say exactly the same thing.
My comments about - "it couldn't be done" were more in the context of big bands I have found myself in - which do get very loud!! There is a good DB player who plays with my main big Latin band and he just cannot get himself heard - even with an amp!! But we do have bass trombone, multiple sax, trumpet and 3 percussionists - amongst other things!!
But getting back to my "experience" - for the last 5 years, I have been trying to play Jazz and in this process have met a lot (maybe more than a hundred?) of struggling new DB players. So (apart from gigs) I go along to a regular Jazz Co-op every Tuesday, I have Jazz classes on Saturday and have been to 5 yearly Jazz Summerschools - on the latter, there are usually about 15 other bass players as students and 3 or 4 DB tutors (Jazz pros).
So - of course I don't have the sort of experience
of playing with great Jazz players like you Ed - but I have got to talk to a whole load of struggling DB players - as I am usually older than then and have been playing BG for over 25 years -so they often look to me for help!!
But I tend to feel that that experience gives me a perspective on the other side - OK you all started somehwere - but how long ago was that - have you forgotten what it's like to be a newbie to DB? I meet people like that every week and try to help them get heard and enjoy things like the jams at the Jazz Co-op, rather than feeling embarassed or awkward at their struggle to be heard - when my bass is very clear and audible.
I was also thinking of a particular example of a young DBer I see each week - he is about 16 and is improving by leaps and bounds - he plays in a big Ska band as well as Jazz with me and I went along to hear the Ska and and he was getting very discouraged that he couldn't be heard without getting feedback or a very boomy sound. He was trying to be heard on a small amp that was clearly inadequate for DB and was thinking about going over to BG - he even bought a cheap one and started using this. But his father bought him a GK 150 watt amp and it all changed and he is now back on track with the DB and can be heard very well in the Ska band and is probably too loud for Jazz!!
But my feeling is that if somebody had told him he had to play un-amped, then he would have given up DB and gone the way of most of his friends to BG and "easier" music - I'm glad he managed to find a way of staying with it!!
PS - I know that Chris Fitzgerald is a DB teacher and he has spent a lot of time around here, talking about amplification and EA cabs!!
Make of that, what you will..........
Make of that, what you will..........
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It is quite impressive and to be honest puts to shame the old Kay bass originals. These basses
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Interesting thread evolution, I must say. Might as
well jump back in - just had some coffee!
My response to greitzer had to do with the need
for a preamp. He also mentioned using a "piano
amp" which could have been anything from an
open-backed guitar amp to a self-contained pa
system.
As for amp vs. no amp I've done both (power
outages and strolling aside). Frankly, I've had
little success in getting drummers to use those
calfskin heads that get the "real drum tone"
necessary to blend with my acoustic bass. Oh,
and I'm sure Freddie Green would have been
offered more gigs if he used an amp.
Anyway, I use the amp because as Martin Mull
once claimed,"If God would have meant for us to
play acoustically, he wouldn't have given us
amplifiers." I also try not to rely on it too much
because of Charles Mingus' observation,"Once the
note goes into the amplifier it's out of human
control."
Either way you play, try to have fun or learn
something new because the money's not always
that good!
well jump back in - just had some coffee!
My response to greitzer had to do with the need
for a preamp. He also mentioned using a "piano
amp" which could have been anything from an
open-backed guitar amp to a self-contained pa
system.
As for amp vs. no amp I've done both (power
outages and strolling aside). Frankly, I've had
little success in getting drummers to use those
calfskin heads that get the "real drum tone"
necessary to blend with my acoustic bass. Oh,
and I'm sure Freddie Green would have been
offered more gigs if he used an amp.
Anyway, I use the amp because as Martin Mull
once claimed,"If God would have meant for us to
play acoustically, he wouldn't have given us
amplifiers." I also try not to rely on it too much
because of Charles Mingus' observation,"Once the
note goes into the amplifier it's out of human
control."
Either way you play, try to have fun or learn
something new because the money's not always
that good!
Scott -- your last advice was the best. I will indeed learn and have fun.
And if I see GREETER, I'll tell him too.
And if I see GREETER, I'll tell him too.
Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
But again, DON'T MISS THE POINT. I've typed this in just about every ****ing post in this thread. If I can play without amp I do, if I need to mic the bass to be heard I do, if I need to bring my amp and plug in I do.
Just to be clear
1. the best way to get a good amplified sound is to get a good acoustic sound first.
2. There are a surprising number of situations in which you can play unamplified. It is hard to discover these situations when you rely solely on amplification for your sound and don't work at developing a good acoustic sound.
Eminently sensible advice - I wasn't getting at you personally Ed - it's just that the "feel" of the thread was like - all the experienced pros can play unamped - this is what you must do - it was just the overall tone of the discussion rather than anything one person said - it felt to me like the debate needed some balance from the other side!
Now if either BRUISERS could take me step by step as to how that turns into "YOU ARE A LITTLE GIRLY MAN IF YOU USE AN AMP", I would sincerely appreciate it.
That was just a joke, (not started by me) which I jumped on, as I thought it was quite ironic!!
That's what it's all about - if it doesn't feel right, I just have to say something; in life as in music!!
NED POOLCUE -- well, it's kinda on topic now so I'll ask. I take it from the above that it's pronounced "foo-kway"? "Few-kway"? I was thinking "foo-kwah".
Hoo hah.
Inquiring minds want to know, DR_ED.
Originally posted by LOOSE WINDSHEILD
PS - I know that Chris Fitzgerald is a DB teacher and he has spent a lot of time around here, talking about amplification and EA cabs!!
Make of that, what you will..........
Thanks, I was trying to stay out of this one. I talk about EA cabs and amplification because I believe that if you are going amplify, you'll get better results using the best equipment out there. I also believe that it is wise to practice getting a sound out of your amplification gear if you plan on playing with an amplifier on a regular basis. For the record, I usually DO play amplified, but NEVER record using amplification. I'm on the fence with this whole issue - I think that geting a good acoustic sound is of paramount importance, and working on sound should be an ongoing goal of anyone who plays the instrument seriously.
I also believe that most situations I play in require more sheer volume than I can produce with my fingers on my bass at this time, so I use the amp as a "fortification" of my acoustic sound. I am not now ashamed of this, nor will I ever be ashamed of it or feel like I have to defend myself for feeling the way I do. However, at the same time, I don't think it's fair to say that my opinions put me in the "always use an amp" camp, nor do they mean I disagree with the "Playing acoustic is always better" camp.
What I do believe is that any amplification system which amplifies the sound of your bass with as little coloration as possible is a good amplification system. Which is why I'm fond of EA gear.
I will go far out of my way to be the first in line to talk about wanting to get more sound out of my instrument and bounce in my swing feel. That's a lifetime journey, and one that I will never complete (for that matter, neither will anyone else). I'll always be working on getting a better sound. If I ever stop working on it, I'll also stop improving.
I do have a few DB students, and even trade lessons on theory and improv with my teacher - who has tremendous technique - for lessons on technique. With my students, I teach them what I can about technique and getting a good sound with as much of the larger muscle groups involved as possible. But I also tell them that if they want to seriously study the physical aspects of DB technique, I'd recommend that they do as I do and hook up with Sidney for that, since he has much more experience and a much deeper understanding of those issues than I have. At this point I see myself as more of a music/jazz teacher who works with bass players than a "DB teacher". And yes, I also teach jazz piano both here at UofL and privately, and Slab both privately and at Bellarmine U.
And just for sake of keeping me out of this argument further, the first thing I teach on ANY of these instruments is that you have to find the sound you want to go for, and then spend the rest of your life chasing that sound you're hearing in your mind's ear.
Interestingly, one of the things that my teacher came to me for help about was how to get a good amplified sound, since he's new to that arena. And the first thing I told him was not to change anything about what he was doing because his sound was great, but to choose gear that would bring his sound across as cleanly as possible. He ended up trying a bunch of my stuff, and going with an Acoustic Image amp, which I think was a great choice for him. Just more proof that you don't have to be on one "side" of this debate at all.
