I don't normally count, but I will if I need to. Some of the more complicated odd time signature stuff that my originals band did basically required counting. Once you "got" it you could usually go by feel.
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Who counts?
- Thread starter glocke1
- Start date
- Jan 12, 2011
- 4,578
- 2,460
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- Artist, Trickfish Amplification Bartolini Emerging Artist, MTD Kingston Emerging Artist. Artist, Tsunami Cables
I go by feel and I also listen to the vocals. I can't sing but I try to learn the words or key words to a song.
I always count, at least until I am comfortable with the song.
It is a part of my learning process, I can't help it.
It is a part of my learning process, I can't help it.
For simple or straight forward stuff, no. When the parts are tricky, or I am simply unfamiliar with something, yes, I count it out at first. But once I get something down, no.
When simply locked into a simple groove, never. Much of the material my previous band played was in 5 or 7 or various combinations of unconventionl time signatures, but once the tune was in my head, it felt as natural as 4, so counting was unnecessary.
However, when I was in a symphony orchestra, counting was essential - especially when not playing! Also, when I was playing jazz live trading fours or eights with the drums, horns and piano required strong counting. In particular, drummers would try to screw everyone up on purpose. They'd start their four bars a beat and a half early and then do polyrhythms or 6, 5, 5, or something odd to mess with everyone. You'd better be able to count fours over that or you won't get asked back.
However, when I was in a symphony orchestra, counting was essential - especially when not playing! Also, when I was playing jazz live trading fours or eights with the drums, horns and piano required strong counting. In particular, drummers would try to screw everyone up on purpose. They'd start their four bars a beat and a half early and then do polyrhythms or 6, 5, 5, or something odd to mess with everyone. You'd better be able to count fours over that or you won't get asked back.
The guys I jam with these days like 5/8, 7/8, and 9/8 bars thrown in odd places so I find myself counting everything until I get used to the songs. I usually jam along with the root notes until I remember enough to put a real bassline together.
When I play along to sheet music, like in the pit for musicals or at church gigs, I count all the measures written as rests for me. Until I recognize, learn and then hear the vocal cues (that are often are notated above the music as 'A' or 'B' sectional notes), then I just use those to count in to my part.
If I am playing rock or blues, I never really count the measures, I can follow the body language cues from others or just use my ears to know when a part should start.
Not usually, but I am trying to more and more. Especially for phrases that aren't 4, 8, or 16 bars long, I find I need to count to be reliable.
When I am not singing I am counting, not as much of the measures as the interior of a bar. Since I have chord sheets and not standard on something with a strange feel I often write in the count, but I am more likely to sketch the rhythm in standard notation so I won't confuse the count with a chord tone.
+1 I sometimes find myself needing to count when the bass comes
in on the upbeats without a corresponding note on the previous
downbeat. Bass players are part of the rhythm section. Timing
is important.
Also, I almost never count higher than four. But that doesn't rule out
something like "1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4, 4-2-3-4."
I count for everything except very hard grooves that I have learned by feel. Sometimes I'll attempt to dissect them once I've reached a higher point in my learning, and once I've fully dissected it I'll count it where possible (ie not on dotted 16th notes or things of that nature)
When you play in musicals where they condense everything into short repeat sections where sometimes you are repeating something 10 times, you will need to count some times, tbh in those situations i only count each phrase and nothing in-between just to make sure i move on to the next section completely right.
IMO in certain things it's actually easier for the drummer if he cocks up he can just keep playing a standard beat (in most musical type stuff) until he knows where he is. However the bass HAS to be correct always as its the major backbone...
I also count when playing passages with loads of time changes, but only the main beats.
IMO in certain things it's actually easier for the drummer if he cocks up he can just keep playing a standard beat (in most musical type stuff) until he knows where he is. However the bass HAS to be correct always as its the major backbone...
I also count when playing passages with loads of time changes, but only the main beats.
Years ago, I was getting a live try out in a jazz trio at Sunday Brunch at the Grand Concourse in Pittsburgh, a really good gig. The piano/leader loved to play "So What", and it would go off to never never land. I just buckled down and counted it. Got it right.
He called me the next day and gave me the gig: "I know you're not the best jazz bassist out there, but so far you are the only one who got the form to So What right, you are hired".
He called me the next day and gave me the gig: "I know you're not the best jazz bassist out there, but so far you are the only one who got the form to So What right, you are hired".
If things are in time to where the changes come naturally, it comes naturally. If it's weird, to where I need to count. I figure how many times, something is played and write in a little variation to keep it natural.
If we play something 5 times, I'd probably do a variation on the 3, so I know 2 before and 2 after. I don't really need to count to 2 do I? It it we're 10 times, I'd do a variation on 3 and 8 and something different on the 5. I dunno, seems to work for me.
If we play something 5 times, I'd probably do a variation on the 3, so I know 2 before and 2 after. I don't really need to count to 2 do I? It it we're 10 times, I'd do a variation on 3 and 8 and something different on the 5. I dunno, seems to work for me.
On the jam in "Money," I count the bars. If I don't, we won't be tight.
I count when I need to count. How tight do you want to be? When there are a lot of complex changes, or spaces, the best of the best count. If you're just chugging along in a basic time signature, of course you don't count.
Sometimes you feel like a nut; sometimes you don't.
I count when I need to count. How tight do you want to be? When there are a lot of complex changes, or spaces, the best of the best count. If you're just chugging along in a basic time signature, of course you don't count.
Sometimes you feel like a nut; sometimes you don't.
I don't consciously count the "1-2-3-4" beats, but there are a few songs where I need to count the number of times I repeat a particular lick, just because it's intentionally at odds with the main melody line.
"Okay, once... twice.... three... now the second part once... twice... play down... first lick once...."
"Okay, once... twice.... three... now the second part once... twice... play down... first lick once...."
There's always some counting going on in my mind. Most of the time it's not an active thought process, just an internal metronome ticking away. Depending on how far the part is from common time, and how unintuitive the groove is, it'll be more at the front of my mind. Knowing, or feeling, however you want to express it, being aware of the one and where you're changing is of tantamount importance to me. Couldn't play without it.
Generally speaking I don't count when I play, just like I don't think "whole, whole, half..." when playing a guitar solo.
The only time I count is when I'm behind the kit trying to come up with some odd time signature craziness. That of course leads me to some counting while I'm trying to write the guitar and bass lines for whatever silliness I came up with on the drums. It's a vicious cycle.
I find by listening to the music thats going on around me, I don't fall in to a situation where I have to count that often.
The only time I count is when I'm behind the kit trying to come up with some odd time signature craziness. That of course leads me to some counting while I'm trying to write the guitar and bass lines for whatever silliness I came up with on the drums. It's a vicious cycle.
I find by listening to the music thats going on around me, I don't fall in to a situation where I have to count that often.
You can't always tell if someone is counting. On new songs I count but no one would know that I was counting. After I know the song and my band mates give soloing cues, and drum breaks and such I no longer count and no one knows I'm not counting. I definitely count more when playing in odd meter too. All that said most of the time I'm not counting at all but I'm in two good bands with professional musicians.
