While I share your sympathy for the labor involved in doing things just right, your sentiments do not diminish the worth of doing so when it's done well and works for the benefit of the overall sound.
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Why are drums miked?
- Thread starter VWbug
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While I share your sympathy for the labor involved in doing things just right, your sentiments do not diminish the worth of doing so when it's done well and works for the benefit of the overall sound.
Here's good example of drums mixed way out front, but still not "loud".
Mutt Lange producing (and singing most of the backing vocals sitting in the control room later), and the incomparable Mike Shipley mixing. The same two guys are responsible for all of Def Leppard. And if we're honest, Shania Twain and Def Leppard are the same act, just different genres and instrumentation... it's a genius way to use the same formula twice to make money. ...Listen honestly and think about it.
Anyhoo... drums enhanced to the max, but not "loud"...
Mutt Lange producing (and singing most of the backing vocals sitting in the control room later), and the incomparable Mike Shipley mixing. The same two guys are responsible for all of Def Leppard. And if we're honest, Shania Twain and Def Leppard are the same act, just different genres and instrumentation... it's a genius way to use the same formula twice to make money. ...Listen honestly and think about it.
Anyhoo... drums enhanced to the max, but not "loud"...
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
There is a difference between playing too loud and miccing a kit. Either can be done with or without the other.
I have plugs but find it hard to hear and then you just turn up and become part of the madness. It's getting old. I much more enjoy the gigs with folks that keep it moderate.
Sorry for the rant.
It's an important subject, no need to apologize. I've seen bands break up and almost come to blows over this.
You made a lot of good points, so I'll re-affirm:
You're right about the drummer; as far as rehearsal or stage volume, the drums set the standard for volume. Amplifiers and monitors should come up to match the drums, but not overpower. Everyone should be able to hear themselves and every other instrument on stage, if they are actually listening that far, which they should be.
If you're dealing with PA and FOH, that's a totally different story. Whoever runs the board makes that call. And if the room is big enough, the drums will need to be mic'd, which should not impact stage volume.
As for weddings, anyone who has done upscale events knows that there is cocktail hour, dinner hour, announcements, and last but not least, the band cranks it up and it's party time. Bands should not be so loud as to drown out or inhibit guest conversations before it's party time.
It just doesn't sound as good if everything except the drums goes through the PA. For best results in the mix, the drums should go through the same sound system as the rest of the band and be mixed by the same engineer. If there are no mics on the drums, then the sound-man has no control over the drum sound, which means the drummer must self-mix from behind the kit. It helps a lot if the drummer knows how to play with a sensitive/light touch, because it gives the sound guy more dynamic range with which to work.
You make good points, but I think a sound man lucky enough to have a good drummer (with a good kit) could mix well without putting mics on the drums. Drums are my starting point for the mix. If the drums sound good I don't care for mics, but if they sound less than great Mics are great. But in a real world scenario, most sound men aren't lucky enough to have a good drummer. So the the best thing to do is go ahead and mic the kit. For the rare case you can always turn the mics to zero.
I like the way you think and I feel like I could trust you with the levels.
What about a dead snare drum? I think some drummers put pillows in their snare drums. I hope I'm wrong about that.
In one of my bands our drummer started playing softer when he got miked. The clarity on his toms was unreal compared to before the miking. The real problem was our guitarist just couldn't keep his damn hand off the volume knob and the drummer struggled to get over it FROM BEHIND HIS KIT. Miking helped this.
A better situation is to not have the volume wars; I haven't been in that particular situation since.
A better situation is to not have the volume wars; I haven't been in that particular situation since.
The drummer in my band bought himself a complete mic set that covers every single drum and cymbal. Even has some kind of EQ / pre-amp rack, looks very professional.
Our last practice session was phenomenally loud. We were all wearing ear plugs and still going deaf. Just ridiculous.
I hate to think what the audience at our next gig will think.
Our last practice session was phenomenally loud. We were all wearing ear plugs and still going deaf. Just ridiculous.
I hate to think what the audience at our next gig will think.
Your right,their amp is their monitor.And the drummer can control the volume with how hard he hits. The volume thru the mains depends on the size of the venue. If the soundman thinks he is doing a great job just because he can get it up to deafening levels doesn't know what he is doing. That is not a great mix that is just a wall of crappy sound. Met a lot of those guys don't waste your time talking to them, their egos don't allow them to hear people who know what they are talking about. As for the fellow musicians tell them to turn it down or you will put your foot thru their speakers.Not meaning to offend anyone or sound stupid.
I am getting tired of playing with folks that just HAVE to play loud. I realize different venues and different types of music matter in this but I'm mostly talking about playing in Coffehouse to medium sized gigs with different groups of people.
It seems that the drums unamplified are the loudest Instrument so that sets the "base" level of decibels stage wise. To my thinking then everyone else needs to be able to hear themselves just slightly above that and each other. Sound reinforcement is for the audience but then the player levels are enjoyable and you hear everyone and its a fun gig. I should add I have tinnitus now but also when friends and family members talk about weddings etc. the most common complaint is they finally get to see folks they haven't seen in ages and can't even talk or hear conversations. I realize a happy vibe needs some volume but it just feels crazy sometimes and there's some gigs that I can't even hear myself and just play and hope for the best and just want to get out of there as soon as I can but still keep a good attitude.
Man, it seems like the times folks play at moderate levels and point their amps at themselves for monitors and the overall level allows for hearing everybody are just fun! I'm getting real tired of the volume wars and the blank stares when you even mention the mud and needless volume. It's like folks are indulging childhood fantasies of stadium play instead of bringing an enjoyable musical experience to folks that like music in smaller venues.
I have plugs but find it hard to hear and then you just turn up and become part of the madness. It's getting old. I much more enjoy the gigs with folks that keep it moderate.
Sorry for the rant.
I once played for a few years on a church worship team that had a formally-trained drummer, who was a part-time pro drummer in his earlier life. Guess what? That guy was adamant that the drums be in a sound-proof booth and the kit properly mic'd to keep the mix balanced; he didn't want the drums in the room destroying the mix or the vibe. They built a nearly-totally soundproof room in the back wall of the sanctuary -- a ladder of 2x4/s to climb up into it, 2 doors (one from the outside, an air-lock, then the door to the booth with the kit in it. It was DEAD quiet in there. He was a technical guy who played with an in-ear click, in-ear monitors, and wouldn't play a song he couldn't count. He would write his parts out in drum notation, memorize his stuff and play without sheets. His playing sounded alive and organic, not rigid or cold. Anyway, I learned a lot from that guy. Bottom line? Church, a rock show, or whatever - the audience wants to hear the band and a good mix. PS: I realized from being around that guy that tuning an acoustic kit is a dying art, and EQ'ing a kit is like NASA/ancient-aliens crap to many.
My favorite was when I played a club and they had some kind of sub underneath the stage, and they miced the kick. They turned it up so loud on my side, I couldn't even play right, because the stage was shaking so much during soundcheck. I told the "sound" kid- "Hey man, turn down the ******* drums on my side, I can't even hear my bass."
He couldn't believe it! I guess some of them don't get that the low-bass notes and the kick drum should be the same volume.
He couldn't believe it! I guess some of them don't get that the low-bass notes and the kick drum should be the same volume.
I run the sound, from the stage, in our band and we sometimes mic the drums.- usually just the kick plus a couple of overheads. I do the soundcheck from the back of the room from my Ipad since I have an X32 mixer. The drums seldom need to be louder in the size of room we play, but the kick does benefit from the extra girth and authority you can give it without noticeably increasing it's volume. I sometimes put a little sprinkling of overheads into the mix, but only like a shake of seasoning on a meal. The main benefit of having mics on the kit is because the mixer can also send each channel to record on a laptop, so regardless of how much of each mic actually gets mixed into FOH we've still got separate drum tracks if we want to do anything with recordings of our rehearsals or gigs.
The rationale behind miking each part of the kit is to get as much isolation from other instruments as possible. Otherwise, as you bring up the drum mikes you also get more guitar, more bass, etc.
Whether or not it is needed is dependent on the room, the drums and drummer, the rest of the stage sound and how loud a mix is required.
When doing sound myself, I use four mikes max: kick, snare, hat, overheads. Toms only if the overheads can't pick up enough of them. In cases of not enough mikes or mixer channels I might do only kick and overhead.
I check the mikes for signal then turn them all off as well as the mikes on any amps. I start with vocals and unamplified instruments first to balance them against the amps and drums. Then I start bringing in amp and drum mikes only if needed.
Whether or not it is needed is dependent on the room, the drums and drummer, the rest of the stage sound and how loud a mix is required.
When doing sound myself, I use four mikes max: kick, snare, hat, overheads. Toms only if the overheads can't pick up enough of them. In cases of not enough mikes or mixer channels I might do only kick and overhead.
I check the mikes for signal then turn them all off as well as the mikes on any amps. I start with vocals and unamplified instruments first to balance them against the amps and drums. Then I start bringing in amp and drum mikes only if needed.
You don't have to have more volume for effects. It's hard to hear effects from the stage, but it is easily heard from FOH. with reverb you can make it 100% wet and it might sound 50% or maybe less. You also need to position the mains so that the drums sound like one kit instead of two. But that's just my experience. I'm sure others have different methods.
I appreciate hearing all your thoughts. I've been to places where they use iPads to adjust levels as they walk around the room and it's still WAY loud. I have a decibel meter on my iphone, if we use technology like the ipad how come the use of a DB meter isn't used as a tool like we all use tuners instead of going by ear?
I was at a local place to see some friends one night. All acoustic guitar and awesome vocals. 40 to 60 folks max. Some folks in the bar and I had to wear plugs to listen to them because they were turned up so loud. These same friends played some stuff in my cellar practice area through my system for a bunch of friends and it was Awesome! Just wonderful talent. I get for a party atmosphere you want some volume but sheesh! ... It really gets old...
I was at a local place to see some friends one night. All acoustic guitar and awesome vocals. 40 to 60 folks max. Some folks in the bar and I had to wear plugs to listen to them because they were turned up so loud. These same friends played some stuff in my cellar practice area through my system for a bunch of friends and it was Awesome! Just wonderful talent. I get for a party atmosphere you want some volume but sheesh! ... It really gets old...
Precisely. Our guy had a number of mics on his kit and that whole kit had its own sub-group on the board. Mics and the total sub level could all be manipulated separately, or together.
