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Why bands most don't last...(long post)

I of course sum it up thus - "some people are jerks!"

:D

It reminds me of the old adage "never go into business with a friend"

Sadly, most of us start out by hooking up with friends who also play instruments, tho not everybody joins up with similar goals and ideas. over time, small issues (band related or not) seem to wear down the friendships and those who can't communicate responsibly crash and burn...I would bet that most of us have seen a friendship killed by band associated issues.

when you join a band of strangers, everyone is there to play music...

Good points, both of you!
And very interesting information, Stumbo!
I never considered personality issues to be a factor. I assumed as, IvanMike nicely puts it that some people are just jerks, and impossible to get along with. My first band dissolved due to the singer/guitarist having a bit (just a bit) of an ego problem. We were great friends too, so naturally it killed the friendship as well. There's pros and cons to being in a band w/ friends, there's pro and cons to being in bands w/ strangers. One of my other bands disintegrated because nobody cared anymore. I guess just like sometimes you become bored w/ somebody in a relationship, bands get boring too.
 
I studied psychology for a year for my criminology degree and a HIGHLY doubt that personality disorders have much to do with the general subject of bands. Sure, there may be bands out there with members with a PD but not all bands do.

Just because your guitarists likes to turn his amp up loud doesn't mean he has Narcissistic PD in the same way that having a phobia doesn't mean you have Paranoid PD. What you have to understand is that PDs affect ALL aspects of a persons life and diagnosing a person with a PD simply from observing their behavior during band practice is ridiculous, not to mention impossible.
 
Psycho-babble.
Having a cursory involvement in the lives of bandmates or periodic contact in their lives does not consitute a proper diagnosis.
Until we can read minds or download the mind onto computers (the latter less than a handful of years...) we will never truly no what's going on.

Needless to say even psychologists cannot diagnose their own family members (lack of objectivity).

But personality disorder? Please. All humans fall into nearly all categorical labels in minute intervals of the day. Sometimes multiple categories simultaneously.
We're human for (g/G)od's sake.
 
Schizotypal personality disorder - Peculiarities of thinking, odd beliefs, and eccentricities of appearance, behavior, and thought (for example, belief in having magical powers but not in the context of a religious or cultural belief).

Now with this... if I believe an inanimate object has a 'soul', per se... am I harming myself, family/friends & society? That those thoughts are detrimental?

For having magical powers... I do... the emergence of, and awareness of, my consciousness.
 
Whether there is a "proper diagnosis" or not, it's not really needed. The crux of the post was that when one has no or limited "ability for insight, reflection or accountability on the part of the individual and their lives are impaired by their behavior", it's pretty much a problem for them and their band mates.

There's a couple of questions that one can ask that may add some perspective to a band member's behavior:

1) What if everyone in the band acted like that, how would things be?
2) How's it working for the problem band member in their non-band life?

Just a few points to ponder as we go about the journey of life.
 
" personality/psychological disorders.
this is why i studied neuroscience and never really liked psychology. Psychology tells you that there is something wrong with YOU. Neuroscience tells you the underlying biological issues and maybe some concrete things you can do to offset these things. "

As a clinical psychologist, I think this is a pretty narrow distinction that isn't really relevant anymore, if it ever was.

A) your neurobiology is YOU. They are not separate things. It's much like a see-saw, if you change one side (neurochemistry), the other side (psychological experience) changes in tandem. This means that you can alter either your thoughts to change your chemistry (as in long-term potentiation and wind-up) or change your chemistry to change your thoughts (SSRI, SNRI, and dopamine reuptake inhibitors) to change your mood.

B) saying that you have something wrong with your neurobiology is saying that there is something wrong with you. Your mind and body are not seperate.

C) Neuropsychology is a rapidly growing field which draws information from both fields. However, it's not very useful in non-stroke, non-organic brain disorder clinical therapy.

D) Neuroscience does a good job of dealing with the biology portion of the biopsychosocial disease model. However, this is only 33% of the problem (which is 33% worse than nonspecific or placebo effects), it must be paired with the psychological (33%) and sociological (33%) components to adequately assess and treat problems.

This is all my opinion, and take it as it is worth.

Thanks for contributing to a great discussion.

As to the original point about personality disorders, don't forget the base rate information in which personality disorders are not all that common (14.8% of the general population meet the criteria for at least one personality disorder). Wether meeting the criteria for a personality disorder means that you actually have a problem is a different argument and best left to Thomas Zsaz.

However, I have worked with several musicians with clinical conditions (most often ADHD, bipolar disorder, and substance abuse) and working with them is difficult. I'd rather keep that at work. ;-)

Psychbass
 
I think much depends on how you handle business and how the band is formed.

Some were like businesses and the expectations were set out on the table early on. We didn't socialize together, hang out, know each others families or attend Summer BBQ's. We got together and played; it was all business. The expectations for what they would get from the experience was a given and if it wasn't what you wanted then you either coped or hit the road.

Others were formed as the direct result of friends hanging out.

Either way from my experiences the fact that the OP's well-written and incredibly insightful post lacks the phrase "complete and utter douchebag" illustrates that while he's incredibly eloquent, well-read and educated, he's never seen the likes of a few bands I've had the dis-pleasure of being in.
 
My ex was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder after we split up...Reading about BPD on the net was like reading a synopsis of our entire relationship.

Sorry for the O/T, but I just had to comment...

I can so relate. Several years ago I was involved with a young woman whom I simply adored. It never quite got to the level of a proper relationship - mainly because her phobias and wild, uncontrolled mood swings made that impossible. This isn't to say she didn't have feelings for me - she did. She simply had no idea of how to relate to a man in an adult relationship.

I had the same "post-mortem" experience as DM: It was only after things hit the rocks for good (having ended very badly) that my online research about BPD (aided by a good friend with access to the DSM-IV), opened my eyes to the contours of the "Alice in Wonderland" world with which I'd had such a close encounter. Scary stuff.

Think what you will, folks. But personality disorders are real! :eek:

MM
 
There have been many posts on band member relationships and personalities, and how they (mostly) negatively affect a band. Many causing a band to breakup.

Here's some info I found that may shed some light on the predicaments that many TB'rs find themselves in. Found at (Link Removed). More detail on the site.

Personality Disorders
Personality disorders are chronic, non-psychotic, psychological disorders, which largely affect every aspect of a person’s life including relationships with family, friends, jobs and health. They are deeply ingrained, non-psychotic, rigid, maladaptive patterns of relating. They effect perception and behavior and are serious enough to cause impairment and dysfunction in an individual’s life.

A personality disorder is diagnosed when there is no ability for insight, reflection or accountability on the part of the individual and their lives are impaired by the characteristics.

Personality disorders are interrelated since they are linked by the attributes that they share in common. The following is a partial list of those shared characteristics.

* Self-centeredness and a self-preoccupied attitude
* Propensity for blaming others and circumstance
* Lack of perspective-taking and empathy
* Manipulative behavior
* Depression and other mood and anxiety disorders
* Vulnerability to other mental disorders and addiction
* Distorted or superficial understanding of self
* Socially maladaptive
* No hallucinations, delusions or thought disorders (except for the brief psychotic episodes of Borderline
Personality Disorder)


Personality disorders can be measured on a scale due to the fact that individuals may exhibit or experience anywhere from mild to severe signs and symptoms of a specific type of personality disorder. While individuals that experience mild symptoms of a personality disorder can live relatively normal lives, during times of increased pressure or stress the symptoms of the disorder may become intensified. Intimacy may also trigger or strengthen the traits. For example becoming closer to a partner in a relationship may trigger primal intense fears of abandonment for an individual with a personality disorder causing them to send mixed messages that alternate between extreme rejection coupled with intense neediness. Because of this pattern, many people with personality disorders have a history of short intense unstable relationships.

Personality disorders used to be called “characterological disorders” because they are rooted in the character of an individual. The character of a person is shown through his or her personality by which is displayed in the way they think and act. When their behavior is rigid and inflexible, and when the behavior is egocentonic, meaning they defend it as normal, then that individual is diagnosed with a personality disorder. Many people have character traits and patterns that they wish to change or that they view as not being who they really are at their core. Individuals with a personality disorder cannot see their behavior and thoughts as maladaptive and they will defend them as being justifiable and correct. In other words, denial and defense are common. It is believed that personality disorders may be caused by deficiencies in early preverbal attachment in children.

Personality disorders are noted on Axis II of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (referred to as the DSM IV) by the American Psychiatric Association. Per the DSM IV (which refers to the latest 4th edition) diagnosing a personality disorder must meet the following general criteria in addition to the specific criteria listed under the specific personality disorder under consideration. The following are the general diagnostic criteria from the DSM IV.

A. Experience and behavior that deviates significantly from the norm of the individual's society and culture. This pattern is manifested in two (or more) of the following areas:

* cognition (perception and interpretation of self, others and events)
* affect (the range, intensity, and appropriateness of emotional response)
* interpersonal functioning
* impulse control

B. The enduring pattern is inflexible and pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations.
C. The enduring pattern leads to clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
D. The pattern is stable and of long duration and its onset can be traced back at least to adolescence or early adulthood.
E. The enduring pattern is not better accounted for as a manifestation or consequence of another mental disorder.
F. The enduring pattern is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance or a general medical condition such as head injury.

People under 18 years old who fit the criteria of a personality disorder are usually not diagnosed with such a disorder, although they may be diagnosed with a related disorder. There are certain personality disorders which do not meet the full criteria and are designated by the diagnosis “Personality Disorder not otherwise specified.”

The DSM-IV lists ten distinct personality disorders, grouped into three clusters. The clusters are divided by the traits commonly exhibited within the disorders in that cluster.


Cluster A (odd or eccentric disorders)
Paranoid personality disorder - Marked distrust of others, including the belief, without reason, that others are exploiting, harming, or trying to deceive him or her; lack of trust; belief of others' betrayal; belief in hidden meanings; unforgiving and grudge holding.
Schizoid personality disorder - Primarily characterized by a very limited range of emotion, both in expression of and experiencing; indifferent to social relationships.
Schizotypal personality disorder - Peculiarities of thinking, odd beliefs, and eccentricities of appearance, behavior, and thought (for example, belief in having magical powers but not in the context of a religious or cultural belief).

Cluster B (dramatic, emotional, or erratic disorders)
Antisocial personality disorder - Lack of regard for the moral or legal standards of society, marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules.
Borderline personality disorder - Lack of one's own identity, with rapid changes in mood, intense unstable interpersonal relationships, marked impulsively, instability in affect and in self image.
Histrionic personality disorder - Exaggerated and often inappropriate displays of emotional reactions, approaching theatricality. Sudden and rapidly shifting emotional expressions.
Narcissistic personality disorder - Grandiosity, lack of empathy, need to be admired by others, inability to see the viewpoints of others, and hypersensitive to the opinions of others.

Cluster C (anxious or fearful disorders)
Avoidant personality disorder - Marked social inhibition, avoiding relating with other individuals, feelings of inadequacy, and extremely sensitive to criticism.
Dependent personality disorder - Extreme need of other people, to a point where the person is unable to make any decisions or take an independent stand on his or her own. Fear of separation. Submissive behavior. Marked lack of decisiveness and self-confidence.
Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder – Extreme perfectionism and inflexibility, preoccupation with uncontrollable patterns of thought and action.

Each personality disorder has unique manifestations and these commonalities listed are not meant to suggest a uniform way in that the disorders show up in all people. And as stated earlier they occur on a continuum meaning everyone can relate somewhat to the characteristics to a certain degree. For example to some degree all people can identify with feeling, at some point in their lives needy, rejected, obsessed, self-righteous etc.

A personality disorder is diagnosed when there is no ability for insight, reflection or accountability on the part of the individual and their lives are impaired by the characteristics.
When did you meet my ex -wife? LMAO!
 
a lot of people turn to music to deal with and express stuff that they can't find other outlets to manage
In my experience the well-balanced professional minded musician without issues is the exception rather than the rule. In my experience at a certain level of talent and experience personality problems are a lot more common. To rise above that level requires a certain stability and discipline that's difficult for the toubled. So the better you get, according to this hypothesis, the less crap you should have to deal with. (that's very optimistic and I'm not in a position to provide any proof) I know a few symphony players who disagree with the idea. But the musicians I know who do a lot of session work are the most stable and professional of the lot.

bass players who have relinquished the spotlight to others and are happiest making everyone else sound better are probably the most well-adjusted of the typical band members -- but in long term successful bands also have a history of being among the 1st to quit
 
To the OP, well you've just described 100% of the human population.

Personally I believe "personality disorders" are highly exaggerated, overrated and used in a manner to simply explain human beings that do not live up to our expectations.

Hell, if one prescribes to the idea, then we ALL have some kind of personality disorder. How messed up we actually are can only be judged based solely on others expectations. You expect certain behavior from someone, they fail to live up to it...ergo, they have a problem.

I'm not talking about an all-out delusional inability to function in society whatsoever. I'm talking about your descriptors of these "disorders'. I mean what is a disorder? Something out of order. And who judges how far out of order one is? Hmmm...let's see. We all tend to have expectations of others. We seldom can even manage living up to our own expectations, much really expecting others to live up to ours as well. When they don't, man are they ever f'ed up, aren't they? LOL.

So when they fail to live up to them (i.e.- letting us down, not following our methodology of how we "expect" them to fit in with us, etc.), we just have to have reasons why they don't. It couldn't be that people just have their own agendas in every aspect of life and they don't always fit in with our own, could it?

Stumbo said:
Experience and behavior that deviates significantly from the norm of the individual's society and culture.

That pretty much sums up musicians in general doesn't it?