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Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

#61
JimmyM said:
Well, her forum, anyway. I got banned because she got ugly with me one too many times and I told her off in an email.
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Seems kinda typical for that (stereo)type of person.

Sorta what I call the "Self-indulgent wiener" syndrome. Or in the case of bass, the "I've been on X number of hits and you haven't so what do you know" attitude.

Honestly, I watched the video that was linked a while back and almost closed the window after that ****weed was all like "I got carol to record all the bass cus they couldn't play well enough for a hit song". That really pissed me off, as there are more ways of handleing the "suckage" other than "just call X". Also, he didn't seem really all that worried about whoever "sucking" in a live situation. I didn't close the window tho, and think that her picking method is interesting at least, and I can see why you hammer on about it. I did close it after about a minute tho, cus I couldn't stand the personalities.

Like most peeps tho, I do have my own way of doing things and will have (and am prepared and willing) to face the consequences of them ways.

EDIT: Sorry for going a little OT....
 
#62
Fli said:
1. Can you define "heavy"? 1mm? 2mm? 3?
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My definition is 1.5mm or more, but the important thing to me is that the pick doesn't bend. 2mm is my sweet spot.

Fli said:
2. I agree anchoring is bad... but a sponge for palm muting? are you serious? :rollno: How can you switch back and forth?
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For some styles it's appropriate to mute all the time.

Fli said:
3. No way you can get the same sound picking up by the neck, period. also it seems like the strings get way to flimsy up there to ever maintain the same speed.
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For some styles, however, that's a good tone. As for speed, your position on the string shouldn't have a lot of bearing on it. When you use this small motion, you have enough control that the string stiffness is a non-issue (although if it's too stiff it may be tiring).

Fli said:
5. there are parts of songs where alternate picking just does not work because of the timing and string skipping. It would take too long to give an example of this without a webcam...
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Perhaps if you are playing very fast it would be easier to sweep pick—other than that, I have no idea what you mean.
 
#63
I don't pick much, but this is good advice. It actually has motivated me to pick more just so I have a feel for it should the opportunity arise. The techniques listed are very practical and seem like a good way to save yourself some pain.

I'll probably break off of fingerstyle in practices for a while and get my picking chops in order. It will also make for a good break from the practice doldrums...blech:hmm:

Anyway, thanks for the tips. I'll file this away for future reference.
 
#65
+1 on NOT anchoring, hand should just float with maybe the hand's knife edge barely touching a string occasionally. Bass slung at waist area usually best IME and the bend in the elbow is the only bending that needs to take place, not the wrist to any appreciable degree.
For me a medium pick allows me to slip on/off/around strings very easily ( .73 + .88 nylon) and extremely fast runs are a breeze. The tip speed you get can be remarkable. I also find, as you gain experience in using a pick, your finger and thumb micro-adjust to all situations (deeping deep, harder, softer, etc) and slip the pick's placement as needed between the thumb/finger. No need for tight gripping either. Being a 90% picker I play for hours with it and have no discomfort at all.
 
#66
Fli said:
1. Can you define "heavy"? 1mm? 2mm? 3? Just curious

2. I agree anchoring is bad... but a sponge for palm muting? are you serious? :rollno: How can you switch back and forth?

3. No way you can get the same sound picking up by the neck, period. also it seems like the strings get way to flimsy up there to ever maintain the same speed.

5. there are parts of songs where alternate picking just does not work because of the timing and string skipping. It would take too long to give an example of this without a webcam...

I'm not trying to disprove this method being safest picking method, just trying to point out this method (as I understand it) does not provide everything needed for some styles of play. Any thoughts?
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1. I define "heavy" by Fender's definition of "heavy." Just a pick that doesn't flex easily. A good stiff piece of plastic or nylon or whatever.

2. The problem with palm muting is it makes it impossible to get the side to side motion with your wrist that you need. I agree that a sponge is unwieldy, and I also agree that palm muting sounds excellent. But again, I get shooting pains in my hand when I do it. Any time I deviate from Carol's thing, I get pains.

3. In that case, I'd get the lightest strings you can stand. Lighter strings do increase the pain-free range. But if you like the sound of heavier strings, I recommend figuring out a way to live with it. I fully realize that some metal techniques would suffer, but I didn't write the rules of repetitive movement injuries.

5. Obviously there are some things you can't do in strict alternation on a pick. So I'd say do it when you can as often as possible.
 
#67
I have also had CTS in one hand and had successful surgery and I will probably end up having it in the other hand someday. Playing bass didn't help but didn't cause it either, that was my work. I've been using some of these techniques but not all. I love to palm mute but I don't do it alot and I vary where I pick according to what tone I am looking for.
 
#68
Dogos said:
Sad to hear the bad news about John Wetton as well, his playing and tone in King Crimson is part of what started me playing.

JimmyM, does CK talk about how she holds the pick? I'd guess traditional style, but is the George Benson style [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (well, like that, but less extreme) advocated? By this I mean how the thumb and index grasp the pick. (On a side note, Benson regrets having started like this)

This may be a little unwelcome, but this appears to be a subject that those slinky stringed guitar players have devoted an enormous amount of time to ("OMG How can we shreds fasters?!?!?1!1:eek:), so they may be of some help in this.

When I was playing the guitar, this article made me aware of different types of movements; rotational, oscillatory and translational picking etc. Tuck's word should not be taken as gospel though, as he advocates anchoring etc.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Also, if you can suffer to sift through it, Ultimate Guitar has an enormous treasure trove of picking technique threads hidden away into it, offhand this one seems to be the most helpful I've read: http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383822 A reader would do best to skip down about 2/3rd of the page to reach Erc's more in depth posts about movement. (If this is off topic, please say so.)

Pretty much, for what its worth, I agree with what JimmyM has said, and that flawed techniques will be suddenly be whole lot worse further down the line.
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Good post, but the benson pic didn't load for me and I don't know if Carol describes the technique in her vid. I have it, but I haven't watched it for some strange reason. Never got around to it, I guess.
 
#69
Dogos said:
When I was playing the guitar, this article made me aware of different types of movements; rotational, oscillatory and translational picking etc. Tuck's word should not be taken as gospel though, as he advocates anchoring etc.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Also, if you can suffer to sift through it, Ultimate Guitar has an enormous treasure trove of picking technique threads hidden away into it, offhand this one seems to be the most helpful I've read: http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383822 A reader would do best to skip down about 2/3rd of the page to reach Erc's more in depth posts about movement. (If this is off topic, please say so.)
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These same references had got me started trying to figure out how to perform the oscillatory movement (up-down instead of sideways) in order to improve my picking - Still trying. Few times I was able to achieve nice and easy tremolo. Most of the time I'm just knocking on the strings with the tip of the pick, without going through and without sounding like alternate/picking.
 
#70
bassrique said:
Is she playing a brown P Lyte in that vid?
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I have that same P Lyte and I love it. (stock) I might have other basses that sound better, but neither is nearly as versatile and that P Lyte is so ergonomic and comfy to play. IMO, it just has THE neck. I really think I'm going to sell off my other two basses (a nice P and a nice J) and keep the P Lyte as my "one and only" to grow old with.

Back to the CK thread - I don't pick much but I should be working on it. I'll use her technique to avoid injury. Thanks for the thread.
 
#71
Did John Wetton play with a pick in King Crimson? I always loved that tone, but I thought it was hard-plucking on a P-bass that got that sound.

I use Fender mediums when I use a pick, but I agree with most everything else JimmyM said.

I will caveat that I think the most important thing for any technique is to stay relaxed and do what your body does naturally. A lot of physical therapists now are advocating changing positions a lot, so you stand part of the day, sit part of the day, etc. The same might be good for playing. If you are not locked into one particular angle or posture, you will get less repetitive stress.

Another rule of thumb is to use the big muscles, not the small ones. Your shoulder and arm muscles are stronger than your wrist and fingers, so use them when possible.
 
#72
I was gonna start my own thread with this one, but this seems like an appropriate place to ask these things.

#1: I feel like an idiot, but how do you hold your pick? I've been playing with a pick most of the time I've been playing and have always secured my pick in the "triangle" formed my the tips of my thumb, index, and middle finger. I know this is not proper (at least for a guitar player, never gotten any input from a bass player), but will it cause any problems? I've been trying to learn to pick "properly" (pick between index and thumb, perpendicular to the thumb) but I've never been able to get the same amount of control with that grip, and my hand always switches it back without me noticing.

#2: You said to never anchor your hand, which I would assume to mean never rest your palm on the bridge or strings, but what about anchoring with your pinky? I do this sometimes when I'm rapidly switching strings because it helps my hand not float all over the place... is this bad technique?

Thanks alot
 
#75
ErebusBass said:
I was gonna start my own thread with this one, but this seems like an appropriate place to ask these things.

#1: I feel like an idiot, but how do you hold your pick? I've been playing with a pick most of the time I've been playing and have always secured my pick in the "triangle" formed my the tips of my thumb, index, and middle finger. I know this is not proper (at least for a guitar player, never gotten any input from a bass player), but will it cause any problems? I've been trying to learn to pick "properly" (pick between index and thumb, perpendicular to the thumb) but I've never been able to get the same amount of control with that grip, and my hand always switches it back without me noticing.

#2: You said to never anchor your hand, which I would assume to mean never rest your palm on the bridge or strings, but what about anchoring with your pinky? I do this sometimes when I'm rapidly switching strings because it helps my hand not float all over the place... is this bad technique?

Thanks alot
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1. I just hold it between my thumb and forefinger like most people do.

2. Resting your pinky turns your wrist, which forces you out of the side to side motion of the wirst. If I do it, it causes pain. You may be different, but it's ultimately not a good thing.

BTW, I have to adjust one thing I said. I never noticed this until last night, but I actually allow the meaty part under my thumb to barely touch the strings when I need to mute unused strings I can't get with the left hand. I don't know if this falls in line with what Carol does, but it doesn't hurt my hand. Someone should go ask Carol for me ;)
 
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#79
DanielTulip said:
Honestly, I watched the video that was linked a while back and almost closed the window after that ****weed was all like "I got carol to record all the bass cus they couldn't play well enough for a hit song". That really pissed me off, as there are more ways of handleing the "suckage" other than "just call X". Also, he didn't seem really all that worried about whoever "sucking" in a live situation. I didn't close the window tho, and think that her picking method is interesting at least, and I can see why you hammer on about it. I did close it after about a minute tho, cus I couldn't stand the personalities.
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Which is very interesting. If you watch the documentary of Tom Dowd, he's just the opposite. Never had a bad thing to say about any of the bands he worked with. Truly an inspiring man.
 
#80
the_fonz said:
Holy crap
I've been using the Carol Kaye method all these years and never knew it. All those points seemed like common sense to me.
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that's so odd, was just gonna type the same thing

I play a little bit of guitar but not a lot....when I first started playing bass I only played with a pick but now I almost always play finger style but I'm trying to practice both style because I've lost a lot of my pick technique since I haven't played that way in a while.
 

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