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Why Slap?

#21
I play that Wild Cherry tune at every wedding and people go nuts. I never slap it ... it's a fingerstyle song but apparently you and I are the only ones who know that, Jim;)

I have to respond to this from my buddy Bruce:

"The point I take from Marty's post is something that has struck me many times - you go into a music shop and find that every kid or even some older guys are wacking hell out of basses and you think why?- when you know that they will be in a band situation where 9 times out of 10 they won't be playing any slap".

9 times out of 10 they won't be in a band;)

The reason you see people slapping in stores? Simple... it's easier! Taking a technique and learning tricks with it is much easier than learning melody and chord structure (duh!). That doesn't make the technique any less legitimate in the right hands but many people want to paint it with a broad brush... I guess that's easier, too:D[/b]




Root/5 on the bridge? That's evil, Jim:D I'd try it if I didn't like my gig.
 
#22
Actually I suppose what I mean is that I'm thinking "why do they think that impresses me or anyone else who happens to be listening?" rather than "why do they do it" when as Brad says it's obviously easier to learn a few tricks than to be a good all-round musician.

I do like slap bass lines on songs where it is appropriate or when the technique is well used. I have nothing against good bass playing whatever technique is used. But I was trying to help out Marty who seems to be getting a lot of flack about his post, when I can understand his exasperation.

I was just thinking that the Topic should be titled :

"Why does anybody today think that slapping impresses others or is somehow a proof that you are a good player?" - rather than just "Why Slap?" I think a lot of the subsequent posts have just picked up on the title rather than bothering to read what it was really about.
 
#23
I know I've been reading the posts;) and I think one of the things some are missing is that it actually does impress people. Not a seasoned veteran or someone who is sick of hearing slap but I'd bet that the vast majority of people , including possibly most other bassplayers, are genuinely impressed with slapping. I don't have empirical data to back that up, just personal experience. The difference in audience (general population, not Jazz/Funk) response between playing a Jaco-esque solo and a slap solo on the Wild Cherry tune would probably annoy the hell out of Marty and Bruce:D... that's not to say that the slap solo would inherently be "better", just better received by the crowd, which, the last time I checked was who we play for in a live band situation.

So, IMO learning some Flea licks and showing them off is not neccessarily a bad thing. Quite a few player's, including my own, playing has evolved over the years... maybe they'll stay true to their original influence(s), maybe they'll move in another direction. If it keeps you playing and progressing, cool.
 
#24
I wasn't implying that you hadn't read it Brad - but a lot of the earlier posts are just responding to why slap.

I think the thing that tends to annoy is when you get this situation where music gets reduced to something like a competitive sport or a demonstration of physical prowess, rather than what it should be, which is about producing music that people want to listen to for it's melodic or rhythmic interest rather than what effort went into it.
 
#28
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I wasn't implying that you hadn't read it Brad - but a lot of the earlier posts are just responding to why slap.

I wasn't implying that you were talking about me:D I figured I'd just mention that I had read all of the previous posts. BTW Marty seems to be asking why people still do it... it makes sense to me that people would respond to why slap?... that is the question, isn't it?

I think the thing that tends to annoy is when you get this situation where music gets reduced to something like a competitive sport or a demonstration of physical prowess, rather than what it should be, which is about producing music that people want to listen to for it's melodic or rhythmic interest rather than what effort went into it.

I'll say this with all due respect (as I've said everything else here) music, to you, and music, to others could be two entirely different things. I seriously doubt that any of the slappers are doing "their" thing for "your" entertainment. Maybe music for some "is" a competitive sport or a way of showing off... do you think it's less competitve in other styles of play (ever heard of "cutting" contests in jazz, country, rock, etc.?) I find blowing endlessly over a I-IV-V pattern in Jazz or Blues very boring on most occassions, but I won't condemn the genre because of what "most" people do with it, I just seek out the harder to find, different from the norm, stuff.

If it truly annoys anyone, there are ways around that. Marty's opening post would seem to be out of step with what is actually happening today...slap is everywhere (figuratively speaking) and I'm truly not sure how he could have missed it unless he was in a slap-free part of the world as far as broadcast mediums. It's bigger than it has ever been. I know for a fact that some people don't like it simply because they can't do it, other's, like Marty and Bruce, are simply tired of what has become a cliche to them.

Guess what...I don't like everything I hear either but I can't think of an entire technique that has no place...of course that's just me, you have every right to be annoyed if you so wish.
 
#29
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I wasn't implying that you hadn't read it Brad - but a lot of the earlier posts are just responding to why slap.

I wasn't implying that you were talking about me:D I figured I'd just mention that I had read all of the previous posts. BTW Marty seems to be asking why people still do it... it makes sense to me that people would respond to why slap?... that is the question, isn't it?

I think the thing that tends to annoy is when you get this situation where music gets reduced to something like a competitive sport or a demonstration of physical prowess, rather than what it should be, which is about producing music that people want to listen to for it's melodic or rhythmic interest rather than what effort went into it.

I'll say this with all due respect (as I've said everything else here) music, to you, and music, to others could be two entirely different things. I seriously doubt that any of the slappers are doing "their" thing for "your" entertainment. Maybe music for some "is" a competitive sport or a way of showing off... do you think it's less competitve in other styles of play (ever heard of "cutting" contests in jazz, country, rock, etc.?) I find blowing endlessly over a I-IV-V pattern in Jazz or Blues very boring on most occassions, but I won't condemn the genre because of what "most" people do with it, I just seek out the harder to find, different from the norm, stuff.

If it truly annoys anyone, there are ways around that. Marty's opening post would seem to be out of step with what is actually happening today...slap is everywhere (figuratively speaking) and I'm truly not sure how he could have missed it unless he was in a slap-free part of the world as far as broadcast mediums. It's bigger than it has ever been. I know for a fact that some people don't like it simply because they can't do it, other's, like Marty and Bruce, are simply tired of what has become a cliche to them.

Guess what...I don't like everything I hear either but I can't think of an entire technique* that has no place...of course that's just me, you have every right to be annoyed if you so wish.



*Even tapping:D
 
#30
Actually, my experience in the UK is that there isn't much slap about on the radio/TV - if any at all that I hear. I'm sure that the situation is different in the US as people have mentioned the plethora of "Smooth Jazz" about and slight variants, that we just don't get in the UK. I first heard about "Smooth Jazz" from this board and only knew about Kenny G as a rude joke about an England football manager who was a bit eccentric.;)

I can get dozens of digital radio stations on my satellite system - but this is confined to UK & European stations. These fall into two main categories. One is rock/alternative, which is guitar-based bands with straight beats and no funk or slap in sight. The second main category is dance music - invariably programmed or sampled with synth basslines and the occasional appearance of a bass sample but no slap.

I listen to a lot of live Jazz, but this is 99% with upright bass and the small number of Jazz electric players in the UK, most of whom I have actually talked to; don't like slap and go for fingerstyle more or less influenced by Jaco.

My girlfiend has the radio on a lot, but I find it boring nowadays and am not even interested by the basslines - the only time I hear any good basslines or any slap, is when there is the odd programme of '70s disco/funk - alternate Sundays on our local radio station.

I do love this sort of music and the basslines - a lot of which are slap/pop - but there is no apparent demand for it in the UK. I have made up MiniDiscs with my favourite (and very well-known) funk tunes, but whenever I put these on at gigs before or inbetween sets I get asked for something else! I pick up a lot of listings magazines for London/South of England and look out for funk bands, as I'd love to do this sort of stuff, but haven't seen any about.

 
#33
Originally posted by Brad Johnson
So...Mark King doesn't get airplay?
Click to expand...

Caertainly not since the mid - 80s. At about the time of "Hot Water", Level 42 were quite welll known in the UK and other bands like Shakatak had slap bass on chart singles; but since about '86, I can honestly say that I can't remember one single that charted in the UK with slap bass.

Mark King as a solo artist gets no airplay nowadays and is only a memory for the middle-aged - the current teenagers would never have heard of him. He was on the cover of Bassist magazine before it folded, but no radio station I can get - even on satellite - plays his records.

I'm sure that somebody like Steve Lawson, who worked for Bassist and interviewed quite a few UK "greats" among bass players can confirm that this sort of stuff just has no chance on the radio or TV in the UK - one of the reasons I presume why Bassist magazine folded. Youngsters getting into music in the UK are much more likely to want to be DJ's or Samplers than to take up bass.
 
#35
In response to Bruce Lindfield, I was amazed that there is little or no "smooth jazz" on British radio. Maybe I'm not using the correct terminology, but you picked up on the Kenny G, so I think you had a good idea of what I was referring to. You also mentioned Shakatak, another band I would put in that category. Let me add some more here. Rick Braun, Boney James, FourPlay, Phillip Saisse, Spyro Gyra, Manhattan Transfer, Norman Brown, Al Jarreau, The Rippingtons, FattBurger, Sade, etc. Plus many, many more of similar persuasion.

I wonder why these groups are not popular in your neck of the woods. Are they too "smooth", do they lack edge or are they too commercialized or the jazz equivalent of pop? Actually I like smooth jazz or soft jazz, if you will, because I find it soothing as background music when I am busy with other things or driving. Fact is I very seldom want dissonant or atonal music on when I am doing other things. I wonder, however, if the culture in England does not need or appreciate "background music."

Do you see the British audience as more sophisticated or is it merely that these groups just aren't pushed in England. For example, if Kenny G were to tour in England, would he be well received or maligned?

One other thing, I do separate "smooth" or "soft" jazz from adult easy listening stations, as they have the true elevator music... soft, pop vocals by the likes of Celene Dion and Barbara Streisand and characterless ballads from the eighties and nineties. They have a lot of N'Sync and even Mariah Carey. I just can't and won't listen to that, but find "smooth jazz" more satisfying, slap and all.

I wonder if American record companies have tried to market this genre in England and failed or if no attempt has been made whatsoever. Maybe England is a younger audience. I can see where Kenny G or FourPlay might not appeal to the DJ, House and Dub set. Here in the U.S., there is a substantial market of baby boomers to whom smooth jazz does have an appeal.

Anyway, it really interested me that Shakatak hasn't been heard in England for years. I'd be interested in your input on this marked difference in what is on radio. (Of course we have radio stations in the U.S. that play purely country, purely Chritian music, and purely Urban R&B. You may not have those stations in England either.)

Jason Oldsted
 
#38
Originally posted by JasonOldsted
In response to Bruce Lindfield, I was amazed that there is little or no "smooth jazz" on British radio. Maybe I'm not using the correct terminology, but you picked up on the Kenny G, so I think you had a good idea of what I was referring to. You also mentioned Shakatak, another band I would put in that category. Let me add some more here. Rick Braun, Boney James, FourPlay, Phillip Saisse, Spyro Gyra, Manhattan Transfer, Norman Brown, Al Jarreau, The Rippingtons, FattBurger, Sade, etc. Plus many, many more of similar persuasion.

I wonder why these groups are not popular in your neck of the woods. Are they too "smooth", do they lack edge or are they too commercialized or the jazz equivalent of pop? Actually I like smooth jazz or soft jazz, if you will, because I find it soothing as background music when I am busy with other things or driving. Fact is I very seldom want dissonant or atonal music on when I am doing other things. I wonder, however, if the culture in England does not need or appreciate "background music."

Do you see the British audience as more sophisticated or is it merely that these groups just aren't pushed in England. For example, if Kenny G were to tour in England, would he be well received or maligned?

One other thing, I do separate "smooth" or "soft" jazz from adult easy listening stations, as they have the true elevator music... soft, pop vocals by the likes of Celene Dion and Barbara Streisand and characterless ballads from the eighties and nineties. They have a lot of N'Sync and even Mariah Carey. I just can't and won't listen to that, but find "smooth jazz" more satisfying, slap and all.

I wonder if American record companies have tried to market this genre in England and failed or if no attempt has been made whatsoever. Maybe England is a younger audience. I can see where Kenny G or FourPlay might not appeal to the DJ, House and Dub set. Here in the U.S., there is a substantial market of baby boomers to whom smooth jazz does have an appeal.

Anyway, it really interested me that Shakatak hasn't been heard in England for years. I'd be interested in your input on this marked difference in what is on radio. (Of course we have radio stations in the U.S. that play purely country, purely Chritian music, and purely Urban R&B. You may not have those stations in England either.)

Jason Oldsted
Click to expand...

Well - when I first joined this board, about 2-3 years ago, I had honestly never heard of smooth Jazz and then there was this big debate about Pat Metheny and Kenny G which was the first time I took any interest. It was funny to me as I quite like some Pat Metheny, but a lot of people I talk to at Jazz clubs in the UK insist that he doesn't play Jazz at all!

In the last year though, I have noticed more albums in the shops along the lines of this sort of thing and there has been a debate in the UK Jazz magazines - lots of people have written in to complain about "Jazz FM" (which I can't get) not playing any "real" Jazz and there has been a campaign to get it to change its name!

I think you are right that most music radio in the UK is aimed at young audiences - 14 - 20 year-olds mostly. The "oldies" stations seem to go for nostalgia which is mostly rock or MOR as you mention.

Of the acts you mention - I know Sade, Manhattan Transfer and Spyrio Gyra as 80s phenomenons but not "current" on the scene. I can honestly say I have never heard any of the others except there is one "FourPlay" track on a CD compilation I have, which I bought for playing inbetween sets at gigs.

I personally don't like "Easy Listening" of any sort and don't like the concept of background music - I'm either listening or I'm not. For me - music is important and I want to be listening to something worthwile if I'm listening at all.

My girlfriend does like the radio as background - and we do sometimes argue about this - I try and find her other stations with better stuff as there is a lot of music we both like, but despite trying very hard to find anything decent, I can't. As a result of this discussion I've just found another digital station called "solar" which claims to play Jazz, Funk etc but so far it's just an irritating parade of what is called "R&B" but is really just slow ballads over drum beats with "soulful" vocalists and may get switched off any minute - never to return!! ;)
 
#39
I would be interested if more UK people posted their experiences, as I'd be interested and it always seems to be just me! I went over the the Bassists forum as a lot of UK bassists seemed to be posting there on Mark King. Anyway - can anybody else confirm that "Smooth Jazz" isn't a big phenomenon in the UK?
 
#40
Bruce-
...FWIW, you & your friends need to check out Metheny's TRIO LIVE double album. Honestly, it smokes(the studio cd, TRIO 99-00 ain't too bad, either). I hadn't bought anything with Metheny's name on it since, I think, SONG X. Both TRIO albums(w/ Bill Stewart on cans & Larry Grenadier on URB)are in a traditional/straightahead-ish vibe BUT with an attitude. In fact, on the LIVE album, Metheny uses one of his synths & they go totally OUT...out enough that even the Free/Avant crowd at Jazz Corner dug it. Pretty cool version of "Giant Steps", too(both releases).

...oh, did I mention that Bill Stewart is a bad ass?

I don't know about the European "sophisticates" being impervious to Smooth Jazz...ever heard of Yanni at The Acropolis? BTW, from what I gather, Smooth is HUGE over in Japan; a couple years ago, someone sent me a Japanese music mag called AD LIB. The people's polls were included...EVERY category's winner(except Bass)was a current Smooth musician:
Best Sax: Kenny G
Best Drum: Harvey Mason
Best Guitar: Larry Carlton
etc
Best Bass: JACO! They're still voting for him(he was the only "non-living" player...they REVERE him over there to say the least!).
 

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