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Double Bass Wich friendly priced acoustic guitar / universal amp for cb ?

Mister Cbass

Mister Cbass

Jun 30, 2011
204
97
France
#1
Hello Everyone,

First of all sorry for my poor English, I' will do my best to be clear :-)
I know that the best " amplification " system is a quest and there is lot of topic about this.
I own a humble chinese db, with a KK bass max piezo.
I'd like to couple it with a microphone ( superlux pra 389).
So I need 2 channels. ( I actualy use a tc electronic bass amp).
I don't have a great CB, I just make little gigs and venues, so I don't want or need something expensive ( preamp like headway, radial or amp like clarus, acoustic image are not justified) .
In the first time, I've thinked about a active speaker + a little mixer. ( But 2 differents gears + cables etc.... maybe it's not a good choice).

Amplifiers for piano look cools, not to expensive, 2 or more channels ( with phantom power)
this one for example
[This invalid link has been removed]

but only 2 band eq

or this one https://www.thomann.de/fr/behringer_kxd12_ultratone.htm
with a 7 bands eq


In acoustic amp i love this thing ( 2 channels with phantom)
[This invalid link has been removed]

or this
https://www.thomann.de/fr/fishman_loudbox_mini_with_bluetooth.htm
Not sure about the phantom on the xlr entry

https://www.thomann.de/fr/harley_benton_streetbox_60.htm

About the acoustic amps suggested, I've fear to injury them If I use my Double bass on it ?

What's your opinion, or maybe do you have others acoustic amps " friendly" priced to suggest .

Thank's in advance.

Sébastien
 
#2
Hi,
few unsorted observations:
- piezo pickups have very high impedance output, so you want an amp/mix/preamp with a Hi-Z input, or with input impedance 5MOhm, 10MOhm. Standard "guitar" inputs will probably render less "natural" sound.
- a combination of cheap microphone and a pickup will probably not yield very good sound. Phase problems will probably occur, rendering less "natural" overall sound. I think you'll find out that the microphone doesn't enhance the sound much, yet it limits your volume with feedback problems.
- a microphone alone could work better. Bass dedicated microphones are extremely expensive and there's a reason for it. But why not try what you have? But, you need a preamp or mix for the mic before you plug it into your bass amp.
- TC amps are pretty good for the price, you're talking BG250? I don't think you can buy something much better for similar money.
- a blending preamp like this (or better) is quite expensive. From the quick look it seems to me that the market for blending bass preams radically thinned from when I was last looking few years back. I think that if I wanted to use mic AND pickup together, I'd try some small mix like this or this with Hi-Z, which I'd try to plug into your TC electronics amplifier. The mix can be used for many more things than just a preamp - you can plug in a mic for a small band venue, or you can use it as headphone amplifier for practising bass guitar at night.
- A good preamp is costly. It's more practical to buy a cheap mix than a cheap preamp.
- Look up Phil Jones bass amps. Some are (were?) made to use pickup and mic together. They are easy for travelling. And not so expensive. You don't need a very strong amp because your limit would be feedback.
 
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#3
jj.833 said:
- TC amps are pretty good for the price, you're talking BG250? I don't think you can buy something much better for similar money.
- a blending preamp like this (or better) is quite expensive. From the quick look it seems to me that the market for blending bass preams radically thinned from when I was last looking few years back. I think that if I wanted to use mic AND pickup together, I'd try some small mix like this or this with Hi-Z, which I'd try to plug into your TC electronics amplifier. The mix can be used for many more things than just a preamp - you can plug in a mic for a small band venue, or you can use it as headphone amplifier for practising bass guitar at night.
- A good preamp is costly. It's more practical to buy a cheap mix than a cheap preamp.
-.
Click to expand...

Hello,

Thanks for your answer,
Yes it's a bg250 (2x8).

I've thought about a small mix, but I was not sure that I can plug it directly into the tc ( No send entry on it, so it's not possible to bypass the preamp )

The models you've suggested look good and very small, but there no 3 bands eq ? Is not better to have the possibility to work on the mids ?

So --> microphone + pickup piezo --> small mix --> into the bass amp, it's ok.

About the microphone I've chosen, I've read a lot of very good opinions about it on a french forum of double bass players ( used as main or back up microphone). why not ? It's my first microphone. :-)
 
#5
Mister Cbass said:
I've thought about a small mix, but I was not sure that I can plug it directly into the tc ( No send entry on it, so it's not possible to bypass the preamp )
Click to expand...

I see no reason you couldn't plug a small mix into TC. You can use TC's EQ or you don't have to. TC doesn't have gain, so you would use mix main volume to control gain. You can use the EQ in the mix too.

I think that the Hi-Z impedance thing is quite important. Read into it before you buy anything. I don't have any favourite mix brand in mind. Look for reviews. Cheap mixes, as well as cheap preamps, tend to make the sound a bit more dull (blind? deaf? paper-sounding?) than the expensive ones. Also, think about whether you do or don't need to record into PC. You could probably buy a mix with implemented USB soundcard for not much more money. (Not this ART, the USB here is just for power).

Best would be if you could borrow something from a friend and test it yourself.
 
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#6
Myself, I'm using TC BH 250 with homemade cab(s), Sansamp Paradriver preamp, Realist lifeline pickup on old carved bass. Until I buy $1000 microphone, I don't believe I could have a better sound. But let me know what you find out, I'm curious!

(If you spare some money, use them to take your bass to a luthier for setup if you haven't done that yet. You might be surprised!)
 
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#7
You can definitely use a mixer plugged directly into the amp. But I would question why you need to blend the pick up with microphone. I use my bass all the time with the pick up only, and all size gigs, and see no need to add a microphone. I am sure it would sound somewhat better if I did, but not sure that it would be worth the extra expense and hassle of having to blend two separate channels.If you were playing a extremely great sounding bass and small venues where reproducing the sound of the bass accurately really mattered, I would think it would be worth the trouble. But you may want to think about whether you need to go to all this hassle for a little benefit.
 
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#8
jj.833 said:
Myself, I'm using TC BH 250 with homemade cab(s), Sansamp Paradriver preamp, Realist lifeline pickup on old carved bass. Until I buy $1000 microphone, I don't believe I could have a better sound. But let me know what you find out, I'm curious!

(If you spare some money, use them to take your bass to a luthier for setup if you haven't done that yet. You might be surprised!)
Click to expand...

Hello,
Maybe a nice acoustic preamp will be the key ( fishman stage or palmer Pocket)....
I've made a setup to my grandmother ( grand mère in french, an another name used for DB, I don't know if it's the same in English, but I love the french expression) :-)
And you're right it's real better.

bherman said:
You can definitely use a mixer plugged directly into the amp. But I would question why you need to blend the pick up with microphone. I use my bass all the time with the pick up only, and all size gigs, and see no need to add a microphone. I am sure it would sound somewhat better if I did, but not sure that it would be worth the extra expense and hassle of having to blend two separate channels.If you were playing a extremely great sounding bass and small venues where reproducing the sound of the bass accurately really mattered, I would think it would be worth the trouble. But you may want to think about whether you need to go to all this hassle for a little benefit.
Click to expand...

Hello,
Thanks for your answer. I'must give you reason, I've have a half carved chinese bass, sounds good to me. Not an incredible bass.
I like the sound with the KK bass max, but I'm looking for something more "natural" of course. that's the quest of each db player .

As I said, maybe it will be more judicious to buy a acoustic preamp like this
https://www.thomann.de/fr/fishman_platinum_stage_analog_preamp.htm

+ this piezo enchancer
https://www.thomann.de/fr/tc_electronic_bodyrez.htm

Maybe the new zoom A1 will make the job.
( fishman simulation, radial, and an enchancer like the the bodyrez)
https://www.thomann.de/fr/zoom_a1x_four_acoustic_fx_pedal.htm
 
#9
Mister Cbass said:
About the acoustic amps suggested, I've fear to injury them If I use my Double bass on it
Click to expand...

The speakers can handle only so much low frequencies. If you go lower than designed, you don't hear anything but the amp still puts in the energy. This might result in burning the amp. Frankly, not really: I think any contemporary amp would have safety circuit to turn the amp off in that case. But if you feel it somehow doesn't play as loud as it should, check for this option. Bass amps like TC would be prepared to deal with lows. But if you had a mix and used it with let's say keyboard combo, it might be the case. You'd need High pass filter (HPF) for that. You find it in all better preamps ...
 
#10
Mister Cbass said:
I like the sound with the KK bass max, but I'm looking for something more "natural" of course. that's the quest of each db player
Click to expand...

After some years of trying to sound more natural, I think the key is:
- simplicity of the whole rig
- quality of its components

For example: I know my Sansamp is no high end, but I wouldn't believe what a difference in 'naturality' my Sansamp preamp makes, compared to my former Fishman (the old, dark grey one). I'm sure now: rather than buying more stuff, buy less, but better. If you use more and more artificial effects in a row, how could the resulting sound be more natural?
 
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#12
There are a few very good recent threads here in TB/DB that are primarily discussing mics, and some also discuss mixing with piezos...

Thread: Dynamic mics, anyone? What`s your best bet for double bass?

Thread: Sennheiser Microphones Review (for Double Bass) Video and Audio

Thread: Xlson Chuck Israels Mic + KNA DB-1 Piezo + Genzler Acoustice Array Pro -Gollihur Model

Thread: Incredible MIC COMPARISON BY SWEETWATER with audio clips

As a result of the first thread, on dynamic mics, I've recently purchased and installed a Sennheiser e604 to use on my Alcoa double bass. I also have a separately installed Vic's Model C bridge-wing/fingerboard piezo set feeding into an onboard K&K Dual Channel Pro ST pre-amp...

I've tested these mixed on an inexpensive 2-channel combo amp and while the mixing technically works very well, I don't really see an advantage of trying to mix the signals together on my bass. YMMV though. I do like having both systems installed on my bass though because they serve different purposes.

I've had the piezo/pre-amp system for a couple of years and have always used it when on stage and it works very nicely. It produces more of an "electric bass" sound with tremendous volume range and great resistance to feedback. I'm not a crazy-loud player, but if others on stage are using amps I like having the ability to crank up the volume if needed in order to be heard.

I've used the new dynamic mic on stage once now in a large FOH venue with a small volume-sensitive acoustic string band, and really prefer the warm acoustic tone it produces over the piezos, but like any mic this one is subject to feedback at high volumes.

So when I'm playing with a volume-sensitive group where I want that warm acoustic tone, I'll use the dynamic mic. When I'm playing with loud amps or loud instruments where I need the ability to cut through, I'll use the piezo/pre-amp system. When I'm not sure, I'll try the dynamic mic first, and switch over to the piezo/pre-amp system if I need the extra volume.

There is one situation where I might use both systems at the same time, that being where I am sending the mic signal to the FOH, and sending the piezo/pre-amp signal to my amp to use as a personal monitor. That hasn't been necessary yet, but it could happen.
 
#13
Mister Cbass said:
I would better go for a nice acoustic pream
Fishman or bbe for example and try to get the best result in combinaison with the tc bg
Click to expand...

This sounds like a good plan to me. It will work with the pickup. I'm not sure whether you can use a microphone to preamp to amp. Microphone output is less hot than pickup. It's possible the gain on preamp would be too low to make it practial (it will probably play, but it might play too silent). It's worth trying however - even if not working with the mic, you'll at least have a good working solution for pickup sound.
Good luck!
 
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#14
jj.833 said:
I'm not sure whether you can use a microphone to preamp to amp. Microphone output is less hot than pickup.
Click to expand...

This is a good point. My mic won't work thorough my K&K Dual Channel Pro ST pre-amp, which appears to be setup for piezos or mag pickups at 1MOhm input impedance, but not for mics. For mixing, or for using my mic with my bass amp, I use an old single channel Fishman ProEQ II pre-amp at 10MOhm to boost the signal. It works well, providing EQ, gain, phase and plenty of headroom for the mic.
 
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#15
Thanks all for your advice and help.

My conclusion :D
I actualy used a zoom b1on with my db. Most often the simulation of the avalon U5, I don't know how the real thing works, but on the zoom it's effect very well the sound. There is a lot of preamp in it , but the zoom is not " ergonomic " when I want to adjust the "sound" I must go Inside the patch.

So, I will do more"test" with it and maybe i will go for de new zoom a1 four. ( for acoustic, with of course the avalon u5, fishman preamp.... ) and more knobs ( gen vol, bass, mids, treble) ---> 129 €
This new version looks more ergonomic
zoom-a1-four-281207.jpg

Or the fishman stage. I can use it on Double bass or bass.
 
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#17
Hello,

Finaly I will try this ( I've contacted Thomann to know more and if it's ok with my combo bass)

I'm really curious to use a microphone ( alone or mixed with a pickup).

I will go for this one https://www.thomann.de/fr/superlux_pra_628_mkii.htm
38€ ( maybe less good than a Sennheinser e906, but came with a little bag and a grip).

To mix it with the piezo to the bass combo amp
https://www.thomann.de/fr/millenium_pocket_mix.htm ( 29 €)

I can work on the signal with the combo preamp or with the zoom.

I' will let you know .
 

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