Wireless Questions

[Timeshift]

I recently had a chance to borrow a friends Shure BLX14 wireless system to play at a gig.

Of course I liked the convenience and am thinking of adding one.

My question stems from the Frequency range 50Hz to 15khz.

I really listened hard to see if I felt it was masking any low end signal on m6 B string and it wasn’t audible.

I realize not having to power a signal below 50Hz should be a benefit, since it robs energy from your amp, increases possible distortion and limits headroom for your signal.

I have played through other wireless systems in the past but have never owned one- I am really not sure if they were a 20Hz to 20Khz design.

I am currently playing 5 strings both Lakland and Warwick and have plenty of power in my amp (the rooms I am playing are midsized not much outside other than patios).

I have used a HPF in the past as well to keep the signal cleaner.

My question- should I make sure I get a model that does 20Hz- 20KHz or will I be happy with 50Hz -15Khz.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[WayneP]

On the top end it won’t matter. There’s nothing audible getting up to 15k and above.

For the low end, it won’t make a difference until you get a gig where there are decent house subwoofers. Then you’ll lose the fundamentals from about F# and below on the E string and B string. That doesn’t mean the notes won’t be heard, it just means the “feel” from the fundaments won’t be there, or perhaps won’t be as prevalent. Of course, it also depends on the capabilities of the subwoofers. Might be a good idea if you are ever in that situation to do a comparison between the wireless and a cable to see if you (or the soundman) can tell a difference. Then you can decide if any difference you might detect is worth giving up the wireless for.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45

 

[Timeshift]

On the top end it won’t matter. There’s nothing audible getting up to 15k and above.

For the low end, it won’t make a difference until you get a gig where there are decent house subwoofers. Then you’ll lose the fundamentals from about F# and below on the E string and B string. That doesn’t mean the notes won’t be heard, it just means the “feel” from the fundaments won’t be there, or perhaps won’t be as prevalent. Of course, it also depends on the capabilities of the subwoofers. Might be a good idea if you are ever in that situation to do a comparison between the wireless and a cable to see if you (or the soundman) can tell a difference. Then you can decide if any difference you might detect is worth giving up the wireless for.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45

Thanks Wayne,

100% agree - I don’t find myself in situations with a subwoofer attached for reinforcement. If I were I would definitely want the lower end.

I was somewhat surprised that It wasn’t audible when I was playing in the lower B string register. I expected to notice a drop off but frankly I wasn’t hearing it.

Once again, I appreciate your input.

 

[WayneP]

I was somewhat surprised that It wasn’t audible when I was playing in the lower B string register. I expected to notice a drop off but frankly I wasn’t hearing it.

It won’t be audible with most bass speaker cabinets because they don’t / can’t reproduce the fundamentals of the low notes anyway.

For instance, I recently took frequency response measurements of my Genzler BA12-3 and Aguilar GS112 cabinets, both two-way speakers with 12” woofers. I was surprised to find that both fall like a brick below 80 Hz. That’s roughly the 2nd fret on the D string – i.e. one full octave above open E. What that means is, below that point all you’re hearing with these two cabinets is harmonics – no fundamentals. It doesn’t take much of a speaker to reproduce the harmonics of a bass guitar. I use a little EV PA speaker with an 8-inch woofer for home practice, and I can hear the lowest notes of my 5-string basses with no problem.

So I’m not surprised you weren’t hearing a drop off on the low end, because unless you have a full-range cabinet from a company like Acme or Accugroove, you aren’t going to hear a drop-off of stuff the cabinet isn’t reproducing to begin with.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45

 

[Timeshift]

It won’t be audible with most bass speaker cabinets because they don’t / can’t reproduce the fundamentals of the low notes anyway.

For instance, I recently took frequency response measurements of my Genzler BA12-3 and Aguilar GS112 cabinets, both two-way speakers with 12” woofers. I was surprised to find that both fall like a brick below 80 Hz. That’s roughly the 2nd fret on the D string – i.e. one full octave above open E. What that means is, below that point all you’re hearing with these two cabinets is harmonics – no fundamentals. It doesn’t take much of a speaker to reproduce the harmonics of a bass guitar. I use a little EV PA speaker with an 8-inch woofer for home practice, and I can hear the lowest notes of my 5-string basses with no problem.

So I’m not surprised you weren’t hearing a drop off on the low end, because unless you have a full-range cabinet from a company like Acme or Accugroove, you aren’t going to hear a drop-off of stuff the cabinet isn’t reproducing to begin with.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45

I 100% agree.

My dilemma is that my buddy wants to sell it to me the BLX 14 cheap and it’s brand new.

I’m thinking about taking his offer -he wants $200.


If I find myself playing rooms with big PA’s and subwoofer reinforcements, than I will buy a model that does the 20Hz low end.

Thanks again.

 

[Zbysek]

I usually set my high pass filter above 50hz anyway...

 

[J R Knots]

That was my original thought too!!!

But WayneP brings up a significant point if you are playing through a large PA withs subs

I don’t that’s realistic for me and the signal should be easier on our amps/speakers.

but it would be nice to shake the room

 

[Zbysek]

Chances are that the sound guy will high pass the bass guitar at 50-70 Hz too...

 

[DonaldR]

Chances are that the sound guy will high pass the bass guitar at 50-70 Hz too...

This

 

[Geri O]

Chances are that the sound guy will high pass the bass guitar at 50-70 Hz too...

Oooh, I would hope not, unless his system won’t handle frequency that low. Which a reasonable step to take.

Tve reason for my comment is that I use a Lectrosonics wireless system for my bass. It’s several years old now, but it still works so very well. Lectrosonics is known for industrial-strength RF gear (think Super Bowl, high-profile broadcast events, etc). I paid $1400 for the transmitter and $700 for the receiver 6 years ago. Because I wanted the best, most robust, cleanest-sounding wireless available for my bass. And in all that time, it has never, ever dropped out.

Having said all of that, the lowest the Lectro system goes is 30hZ. So I don’t think that a 50hZ roll-off is detrimental to the bass tone. There’s other things to be concerned with when using wireless systems on bass. And most of all, you don’t absolutely have to spend $2200 to get a good wireless system for your bass. There’s very good systems out there for considerably less.

 

[Zbysek]

Oooh, I would hope not, unless his system won’t handle frequency that low.

IME, the reason for high passing the bass guitar channel is usually frequency slotting (in other words: leaving sonic space for the kick drum), not the (in)ability of the PA system... There is DSP at the PA level to deal with that...

 

[Plain Old Barry]

Chances are that the sound guy will high pass the bass guitar at 50-70 Hz too...

Or not... unless there's a mountain of mud coming from the stage.

Some sound systems run the subs off an aux send, bass guitar is one of the instruments that get fed into that aux. Adding an HPF that high to the channel would not usually be a good idea. If they do add a filter, it might be more 30-35ish Hz, or they can simply leave it out of the sub feed and the system will naturally eliminate the very bottom.

 

[Geri O]

IME, the reason for high passing the bass guitar channel is usually frequency slotting (in other words: leaving sonic space for the kick drum), not the (in)ability of the PA system... There is DSP at the PA level to deal with that...

(Warning - Topic Swerve)

That makes sense. I guess my old-school mixing tastes are showing. Back in The Day, we mixed the low-end for the bass to carry the lower end of the rhythm section with the kick nice and solid, but without the mortar-shattering low end that's commonplace today. Today, it seems that mixing completely backwards.

Which is fine with me, I guess (like I have a choice). Playing bass now with my IEMs, I've found it best to not worry about the house mix because I can't do anything about it anyway. I concentrate on my playing and locking with the drummer and the band. The rest, as irresponsible as it sounds, simply isn't my problem.

(Back to the topic at hand. Apologies....)

 

[Zbysek]

Or not... unless there's a mountain of mud coming from the stage.

Some sound systems run the subs off an aux send, bass guitar is one of the instruments that get fed into that aux. Adding an HPF that high to the channel would not usually be a good idea. If they do add a filter, it might be more 30-35ish Hz, or they can simply leave it out of the sub feed and the system will naturally eliminate the very bottom.

I know some sound techs who high pass bass guitar at 50Hz or higher as a default...to make room for the kick drum...

How to Add Separation and Clarity to Your Mixes (Fast!)

Low End Hacks: Perfecting The Kick & Bass -

 

[Zbysek]

Which is fine with me, I guess (like I have a choice). Playing bass now with my IEMs, I've found it best to not worry about the house mix because I can't do anything about it anyway. I concentrate on my playing and locking with the drummer and the band. The rest, as irresponsible as it sounds, simply isn't my problem.

I like your approach.

That makes sense. I guess my old-school mixing tastes are showing. Back in The Day, we mixed the low-end for the bass to carry the lower end of the rhythm section with the kick nice and solid, but without the mortar-shattering low end that's commonplace today. Today, it seems that mixing completely backwards.

IME, the approach to bass v kick frequency slotting is genre-dependant... There are genres, where bass would ocupy the sub-bass area and the kick would be above it...

 

[Plain Old Barry]

IME, the approach to bass v kick frequency slotting is genre-dependant... There are genres, where bass would ocupy the sub-bass area and the kick would be above it...

Exactly. It is very genre dependent, as well as dependent on what else is in the act... We call it "layering the mix". There are techniques to do this all over the spectrum, like adding mids to a guitar solo to pull it out of a mix, filling a whole left when vocals stop. The subs running off an aux also creates a natural high-pass for everything not fed to the subs.

It also depends on the player's technique, sound, and stage gear. Some 5 string players don't control the B very well, and/or use a rig that acoustically or electrically high passes the stage sound, and are unaware of the very low sounds they create. They often need far more low-end shelving or high passing than 4 stringers or players with better technique.

 

[Timeshift]

I like your approach.



IME, the approach to bass v kick frequency slotting is genre-dependant... There are genres, where bass would ocupy the sub-bass area and the kick would be above it...

Lots of great insights. Thank you all.

A few more pieces.

I doubt I will running through the PA system over 90% of the time.

Most the time my sound will be based on my bass rig.

Mainly playing medium to smaller clubs- occasionally outside- mostly patios.

My speakers Hartke 4x10 rated 30Hz to 17khz.

Amp Gallien Krueger Fusion 550 - not absolutely sure where it rolls off on the low end
Deep switch claims add +4db @ 30Hz.

Maybe the signal is still active down to 30 Hz.

I do play 5 string basses but I don’t live a lot in the low B space.

I was able to open things up and play fairly loud and it seemed very clean even with the low B open.

Most of the music we are playing would be considered old school or Alternative rock, blues, Jazz.

Is there anything that is being missed by not having a longer extension in the low end roll off that would make the transition from 50Hz down to 20Hz.

In Hi Fi equipment, there was always talk that the capacity to roll off rather than an abrupt stopping point was an advantage.

I’m sure that not trying reproduce anything below 50Hz is a huge advantage for our amplifiers.

Also, am I not thinking of something crucial that I will regret by not focusing on a wireless that was created specially with bass in mind??

Again thank you all for your responses.

 

[WayneP]

My speakers Hartke 4x10 rated 30Hz to 17khz.

There is practically zero chance that cabinet is getting that low or that high – see post #4

Is there anything that is being missed by not having a longer extension in the low end roll off that would make the transition from 50Hz down to 20Hz.

Not in your situation. The lowest note on a 5-sring is ~30 Hz.

I’m sure that not trying reproduce anything below 50Hz is a huge advantage for our amplifiers.

Correct, especially since the great majority of cabinets do not even get down to 50 Hz, much less below that.

Also, am I not thinking of something crucial that I will regret by not focusing on a wireless that was created specially with bass in mind.

In your situation, not at all.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45

 

[Timeshift]

There is practically zero chance that cabinet is getting that low or that high – see post #4

Not in your situation. The lowest note on a 5-sring is ~30 Hz.

Correct, especially since the great majority of cabinets do not even get down to 50 Hz, much less below that.

In your situation, not at all.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45

Thanks Wayne

Good info. I appreciate your input.

 

[stevegrif]

IME, the reason for high passing the bass guitar channel is usually frequency slotting (in other words: leaving sonic space for the kick drum), not the (in)ability of the PA system... There is DSP at the PA level to deal with that...

That's what sidechained compressor are for - the Kick drum with dip the bass but a few db at the timeof the hit. This leaves room for the kick to come through well. It is a very co-operative technique.