Wooden frets?

[DavidRavenMoon]

Just an idea, not sure if it would work.


What would happen if you mixed sawdust of same type as the wood being used with an expoxy of some sort and poured it into a fret template?

Surely the epoxy would at least add some strength and the sawdust the colour.

Obviously it would be a lot more prone to wear, but its just an idea.

There was a guitar called the Bond Electraglide built in Scotland in 1984-85. Only about 1400 were built. It was very ahead of its time. It featured one-piece carbon fiber construction, active electronics with LED readouts for volume, bass and treble settings, an external power supply. It didn't have frets, instead the fingerboard was made from aluminum, with a black carbon finish (felt like the rest of the guitar) made into "steps"... it was a sort of saw tooth wave pattern.

It had a interesting feel... very easy to play.

I'm not sure how much wear the fingerboard got, but it does show it is a possibility.

I would love to have quiet frets. I switched to frettless at one point because I didn't want to hear fret noise. Since I had a maple board, it got a nice slap tone.

 

[The Penguin]

He said "a little" in that interview, but I played his Dean bass, and they were very low, like an old Les Paul Custom. I have standard jumbo frets on my bass, and his were at least half as high as mine. He said to me "I like them low and wide".

His Dean had the lowest action on any bass I have ever played. He had pretty light gauge strings too... seemed lighter than 40-60-80-100, but they probably were those gauges. Just about every note on the bass had the same amount of fret buzz. It has a thin and narrow neck too.

Every note having the same amount of buzz means it has a good fret job and you were playing that bass too hard. It does not mean your original statement that the frets are so low it sounds like a fretless is true. And I still don't hear fret buzz when Jeff plays. Redefining your statement does not make it true.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Every note having the same amount of buzz means it has a good fret job and you were playing that bass too hard.

Ha! That's making assumptions. I think after 36 years I know how to pluck a string!

It does not mean your original statement that the frets are so low it sounds like a fretless is true.

Meshell doesn't agree with you. She stated in bass player that the frets were ground down on her Jazz Bass so low that it sounds like a fretless. I'll dig up my copy and post it verbatim.

And I still don't hear fret buzz when Jeff plays. Redefining your statement does not make it true.

You couldn't hear it plugged in... he doesn't use enough high end... he keeps the tone rolled back a bit. But you could hear it acoustically. I didn't play his bass plugged in.

I think this is just a pissing contest. Until somewhere here levels frets really low (and I mean lower than Jeff's) and tries it out, no real answer can be given. The rest is opinion and speculation based on preconceptions.

 

[The Penguin]

Ha! That's making assumptions. I think after 36 years I know how to pluck a string!

Well as you say you it doesn't buzz plugged in for Jeff

You couldn't hear it plugged in... he doesn't use enough high end... he keeps the tone rolled back a bit. But you could hear it acoustically. I didn't play his bass plugged in.

So this buzzy fretless tone is acoustic only? Does it seem ridiculous to now say you can't hear it when it's plugged in? What's the point of an acoustic only fretless buzz tone?

Until somewhere here levels frets really low (and I mean lower than Jeff's) and tries it out, no real answer can be given.

What? Now it works only with frets lower than Jeffs? I only hope your musical improv skills are as good

 

[callmeMrThumbs]

Just a suggestion...but you might be able to try bone frets, or any other nut material. They'd wear down faster than metal, but they'd be quieter, and the open strings would sound like fretted notes! (theoretically).

-Josh

 

[Angus]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this, but there is a company that makes frets out of Delrin (polyacetyl), which is a very hard, easily machinable, self-lubricating plastic. It makes fantastic frets- you have to set it up a bit differently, as the tang is a bar rather than a proper tang, so you have to mill out a bit more wood.

I have an older Yamaha BB that has them on it- with an ebony fretboard, nickel strings, and the delrin frets, it sounds like a fretless. No fret noise, even when you dig in or set the action super low (the self-lubricating surface allows the string to slide across any other bit it might touch silently). Very, very cool.

I can try to get the name of the company if you like. I wouldn't probably use steel strings on them due to wear, but with nickels it's lasted about 5.5 years now.

They can also be set up with varying heights, as well, with no detriment to sound.

It would be easier than wood to keep heights, thicknesses and crown shapes consistent, last longer, and hey, they even look sleeker (they're black).

 

[M.R. Ogle]

David, thank you for bringing up the Bond Electraglide... I was waiting for a bass version with that fretboard, thinking it would be a much more natural and useful innovation for bass than guitar.

Here's a photo of that fretboard... maybe if you bought one of those Ebonal necks and took it to a good machine shop???

 

[pilotjones]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this, but there is a company that makes frets out of Delrin (polyacetyl), which is a very hard, easily machinable, self-lubricating plastic. It makes fantastic frets- you have to set it up a bit differently, as the tang is a bar rather than a proper tang, so you have to mill out a bit more wood.

I have an older Yamaha BB that has them on it- with an ebony fretboard, nickel strings, and the delrin frets, it sounds like a fretless. No fret noise, even when you dig in or set the action super low (the self-lubricating surface allows the string to slide across any other bit it might touch silently). Very, very cool.

I can try to get the name of the company if you like. I wouldn't probably use steel strings on them due to wear, but with nickels it's lasted about 5.5 years now.

They can also be set up with varying heights, as well, with no detriment to sound.

It would be easier than wood to keep heights, thicknesses and crown shapes consistent, last longer, and hey, they even look sleeker (they're black).

1. verry, very interesting
2. yes, Please get the name of the company
3. so, are you saying that you have 5.5 years of normal use on it, and with no fret wear?
4. there's a difference between high lubricity (which all acetyl has) and self-lubricating (which a doped acetyl can be). I wonder which this is.
5. you say it sounds like a fretless: do you mean it sounds like a fretless simply because of a lack of fret clacking, or do you mean that you get some kind of a mwah-like fretless tonality?

 

[Showdown]

This might be a crazy idea, but why don't you just learn to play fretless?

Even if you can get it to sound like fretless with wood frets, you would lose one of the benefits of fretless - the ability to slide and to play with vibrato (the vibrato you get by bending strings on a fretted bass only goes up in pitch, while vibrato on fretless goes both up and down in pitch). That is an important part of fretless playing.

 

[Angus]

Pilotjones:

Still looking for the company. Good catch, though- I don't know if it was late or what, but it's not self lubricated, just highly lubricious. I doubt it's been doped, but for this purpose it doesn't need to be. The "fretless sound" comes from the lack of fret clack and the softer, non-metallic contact, like a fretless, so it resonates a bit different. There is a bit of the "mwah", but nothing will get that quite like a fretless because a lot of that comes from the fact that a portion of the string just past where it's contacting the fretboard is vibrating against the wood. So, as far as I know, nothing will ever really get that sound short of actually playing a fretless. But it's the closest thing I've seen to emulate it on a fretted bass.

 

[pilotjones]

Thanks for the info. And regarding the fret wear aspect?

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

David, thank you for bringing up the Bond Electraglide... I was waiting for a bass version with that fretboard, thinking it would be a much more natural and useful innovation for bass than guitar.

Me too. It's been a while, but I seem to remember seeing a bass that was just a plain fretless... but I might be thinking of something else.

I played the guitar a couple of times back when it came out. I really liked it.

maybe if you bought one of those Ebonal necks and took it to a good machine shop???

I use ebonol (also known as phenolic or Garolite) fretboards. I'm not sure how easy you could machine something like that, without using a CNC setup... It's worth a try though. I'd also imagine Bond had a patent on that design, but I haven't looked it up.

 

[Angus]

Ah, yes. I wouldn't say it's my main bass (it's not), but it got played frequently and gigged from time to time, and there is no visible fretwear anywhere. I use nickel strings, finger-style only, and have a very light touch with left fingers, so it's possible there would be more wear with steel strings, a heavy left hand, and lots of slapping.

They also seemed to wear strings out a bit slower, as well.

As far as shape goes, they're fairly beefy- I don't remember the size in .xxx", but they're both wide and tall. Not my bag, usually, as I'm a short/narrow or at worst tall/narrow type, but they don't have a lot of the negatives that jumbo nickel or steel frets do. They definitely feel much different in your hands- the vibration in the string will feel much more like a fretless, as well. Hard to explain, I suppose. Lighter strings are the name of the game, in my opinion, with these.

I'll see if I can't find something on the net right now about them.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this, but there is a company that makes frets out of Delrin...

Now this is interesting. I haven't heard about this. If you find any info let us know!

And I second the suggestion about learning to play fretless. It's not that hard, and it's a lot of fun! Nothing really gets that exact tone either.

My first fretless had lines, but now I never look at my fingers when I play (on fretted too) so my new one is just black phenolic.

 

[taviswardlaw]

if someone really wanted to test the tonal differences (as apposed to the feasibility) you could try it on a nylon (classical) acoustic. I for one don't have the time/money/care... but then you can find a cheapo acoustic for $50... pull the frets... wouldn't be hard... anyone? if you do.. let me know.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Another idea would be tied on frets. Many old instruments featured frets that were just gut strings tied around the neck at the right locations. Nylon mono filament would probably work.

Probably wouldn't hold up to wound wounds, and you have the strings going around the back of the neck, but it would certainly be a different tone.

 

[Angus]

I'll get the information as soon as I can.

Actually, as you mentioned nylon/classical instruments, this is where the delrin frets come from- they were used because they sound more natural than metal. (Rather, they don't color the tone as much)

 

[pilotjones]

I'm interested in this, especially since every time it's come up in the past, people have stated that on classical guitars with Delrin frets, it isn't actual "frets" (with a semicircular-ish head above, and a tang below) in fret slots, but rather plain round Delrin rod, in a fretboard milled with a ball bit.

As far as "more natural", that's a matter of opinion (of course). To me the natural sound of a guitar is produced with metal frets.

 

[Angus]

Thats exactly what they are- if you read above, I mentioned that it's not a proper tang, it's just a bar. Hence why you can't really go back if you don't like them, because the fret slot has been milled half round and much larger.

It doesn't affect function, however.

 

[pilotjones]

Gotcha. I misunderstood and thought you had something shaped like a fret, just with a wider tang.

So, the material you're looking for is a standard manufacturing commodity; you're not as likely to find it in luthier places. It's standard acetyl round bar stock. Available in black or (ready for this white! Could be cool on a maple board.

It can also be bought with various fillers (e.g. glass, graphite, oil). And anyone looking to try something new could try Nylon (polyamide), with or without fillers; or other engineering plastics, if they so choose.

The nylon comes in black or off-white. Also there are types in blue, and green. Nylon does not give as good a finish after machining (incl. filing) as does acetyl.