Would Someone Please Explain This To Me???

[El_Charro]

Hi Everybody,

Not sure if this belongs here or another forum (Music Theory???), however I had a question about Classic Metal vs 90s/Newer Metal bass…

I have been trying to learn to play Black Sabbath (especially their first two albums) and earlier Iron Maiden for some time and I’ve noticed that for whatever reason a lot of the notes used in those bands are primarily on the A string (not the E string)…

Both Geezer and Harris really seem to settle in around the 5th and 7th fret…

While they use a lot of other areas on the fretboard, I’ve noticed that is just sorta where a lot of their songs end up (or the area around there)…Even when they move to another string it’s usually to the D or the G, not to the E…

I understand that a lot of bands later ended up down tuning and trying to get the bass to hit a lower register so a lot of Metal bands that I like from the 90s onwards primarily use the E string (or D/C/B/etc if the song is down tuned) where as more “classic” Metal albums tend to steer away from playing a lot of notes down there…

Just curious, but is there any particular reason for this???…

Is it because g*tarist started down tuning and therefore the bass players had to downtime or play on the bottom string as well???

Not sure if it has to do with the mix, or recording, or if that was just sort of where music was played during that time period(???)…

No “wrong” answers here mind you-It’s just odd to me bc while I try to play Sabbath and Maiden early in the week I notice as I move later into the week and start playing Alice In Chains, White Zombie, Metallica, etc - It seems like notes practically shift down and I wind up playing those songs more on the E string…

Granted I like that sound better, but it’s kind of odd to me that it seems like early Maiden and Sabbath songs spend a lot more time up an octave on the A string for a lot of their bass lines…

Just curious if anyone has an idea why that’s the case…Recording technology???…They both play a P bass so maybe it sounds better in the mix???…

Open to other ideas as to why bc it really makes me wonder…

Thanks! \m/

 

[P Cheen]

I agree, I think guitar downtuning played a huge role in this shift. Also to my ears the timbre of an open E (or D or C or B etc. if downtuned) is much more suited for metal. Sounds ballsier, too; and especially when combined with pick playing where sometimes it can make it sound tinny.

 

[spade2you]

You sees, to be heaviers the metals, you must detunes the guitars and basses. Many Nordic scientists have proves this! Regular tunings is for the olds guys.

 

[SteveCS]

What an interesting observation.

Putting improvements in string technology aside for a moment, and the consequent advent of the viable 5-string bass...

I wonder how much of that is to do with improvement in amplifier capability? Bass amps of the '70s weren't really up to much compared to the emerging technologies of the late '90s and 21st century. My recollection of most amps is that low end extensions were relatively weak and undefined with a tendancy for resonant mud and indistinct attack. Playing up meant better note definition and clearer more powerful representation of pitch, so was perhaps necessary just to be heard.

Modern speakers have the ability to really produce low pitch and fast transients properly at significantly more volume than ever before. Combined with modern amps which have the vast headroom to make the speakers work to their best are possibly some big factors here.

The other possibility is that bands and recording engineers understood the limitations of the majority of domestic reproduction systems and AM radio, and so music was recorded and produced accordingly?

YMMV

 

[Malcolm35]

Root on the A string? If your root is on the A string that roots IV is up a string and the V is down a string --same fret. Makes a I-IV-V chord progression a piece of cake? This may be why...?

Could the reason be that simple.

 

[SteveCS]

Root on the A string? If your root is on the A string that roots IV is up a string and the V is down a string --same fret. Makes a I-IV-V chord progression a piece of cake? This may be why...?

Could the reason be that simple.

I hope not!!

 

[two fingers]

What an interesting observation.

Putting improvements in string technology aside for a moment, and the consequent advent of the viable 5-string bass...

I wonder how much of that is to do with improvement in amplifier capability? Bass amps of the '70s weren't really up to much compared to the emerging technologies of the late '90s and 21st century. My recollection of most amps is that low end extensions were relatively weak and undefined with a tendancy for resonant mud and indistinct attack. Playing up meant better note definition and clearer more powerful representation of pitch, so was perhaps necessary just to be heard.

Modern speakers have the ability to really produce low pitch and fast transients properly at significantly more volume than ever before. Combined with modern amps which have the vast headroom to make the speakers work to their best are possibly some big factors here.

The other possibility is that bands and recording engineers understood the limitations of the majority of domestic reproduction systems and AM radio, and so music was recorded and produced accordingly?

YMMV

Combine this with the fact that many if them started on guitar anyway and I think there's your answer.

 

[Gothic]

I don't fully understand the question here but I'll go ahead and try for a response.

I'm assuming since most of their stuff are in (or around) E, unless you wanna drone the low open E, you kinda have to play the next octave (and around). Hence, the A string noodlery.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

It reserves lower notes for dramatic effect at key moments.

 

[LBS-bass]

Bass amps of the '70s weren't really up to much compared to the emerging technologies of the late '90s and 21st century. My recollection of most amps is that low end extensions were relatively weak and undefined with a tendancy for resonant mud and indistinct attack.

Yeppers. It was often all mud, all the time back then on the low end. You'd combine this lack of definition coming from the gear itself with performance venues that were not designed with acoustics in mind and bottom end boom was pretty much the rule rather than the exception. We have come a long way since then.

 

[SteveCS]

Combine this with the fact that many if them started on guitar anyway and I think there's your answer.

Hadn't considered that, but yeah, probably a factor in many cases.

 

[Bass]

All of the above are good answers.

I don't know if this has anything to do with it. But I find frets 5 to 9 very comfortable as opposed to frets 1 to 4. And E is right there on the A string.

Also, I think some people find going up in pitch more natural than going down. In other words from A string to D string to G string.

 

[Gustopher]

Steve didn't start on guitar. He wanted to play drums but didn't have room for them and said that bass was the best alternative since it was the other half of the rhythm section. He definitely rides the 5th and 7th fret area a lot. When I play a lot of maiden it really opens up my playing because I was so used to playing lower on the E and now I realize I can get a lot more done in an interesting way if I give myself more room up the neck.

 

[micguy]

Notes played on the 5th to 7th fret sound heavier (they have more fundamental in the spectrum) than the same notes played on the next string up near the nut - the comb filtering from pickup positioning bakes this into your tone, and if you want to sound heavy, but your rig doesn't really support a low E well (The classic Ampeg SVT rolls off the lowest octave), then you play things up an octave, but in the position on the bass where they sound the heaviest.

I play 5 strings primarily, but find myself in that area a lot (frets 5 to 9) as well - even though the PA's I play through do just fine with a low B, the "bigger" tone from playing in that area is something I use for a lot of tunes.

 

[aprod]

I find that a strange way to describe music in relationship to fret position. What chords are being used and what scales are more important then where they played those notes.

 

[Mshraderbass]

Same with me but maybe it’s because I have a MTD 535-24. Playing up the neck in that area is easier to do plus I get that thicker sound. It seems that a lot of worship music tends to be in B flat or C those notes sound really full in that area of the neck

 

[AceOfBassFace]

Could it be because those keys are where the vocalists were strongest in those bands?

 

[SteveCS]

I find that a strange way to describe music in relationship to fret position. What chords are being used and what scales are more important then where they played those notes.

Not really. The timbre changes according to string length and gauge. Shorter fatter strings sound thicker, warmer and more resonant but with softer attack and quicker decay than long thin strings playing the same pitch. Compare Ab at first fret on G string to the same Ab at 18th fret on the E string. Choosing where to play a note is no less important that what note to play. All part of overall musicianship.

 

[chaosMK]

The string-position impacts the timbre a little. Paying same pitch on a lower string will sound burlier. Most of the time I'd rather play in 5-7 on A than 10-12 on E, just like how it feels around there. A little less distance to reach than higher frets on E.

Octave is more stylistic choice (heaviness or reserving it for effect like someone said).

 

[lucas303]

I find that a strange way to describe music in relationship to fret position. What chords are being used and what scales are more important then where they played those notes.

Yeah, because an open D string sounds exactly the same as playing that note on the 5th fret of the A string