Yet Another "How Do I Get That Tone" discussion

[jazzgrowler]

But this one has specific examples, via spotify links.
It's time for a new bass. I would like a fretless 5 string, no lines, dots only, skinny neck, prefer coffee table or hippie sandwich over painted, and don't want another Fender (that's for another discussion.)
My preferred budget is $2500US, (yeah right, dream on). My sort of comfortable not too much guilt budget is up to $4000. My "Oh no! Did I really spend that much?!" budget is $5000 max.
I like the bass I have, Willcox Lightwave Saber

It's light weight, has a skinny neck, plays great, super clean sound, and has lots of tones I like. Anything from a pretty darn good Jaco sound, all the way back to a nice warm mellow woody jazz combo type sound, but -
There is this "one certain tone" that I like, and I want to know how to find it without spending $7500 for a fretless Fodera. I read in various fora where people say, "well, if you have three thousand to spend, you can get a custom bass with any tone you like!" And then they fail to mention where, exactly, one could do this. I can't exactly go down to my local Mom 'n Pop's Guitars and Trombones and test drive an F Bass. Even most Guitar Center type places don't have much of this high end stuff in stock, especially fretless.
My searches on the net turn up the usual suspects, F Bass, Fodera, Alembic, Pedula, Warwick, etc.
I read discussions, and people use words like growl, bite, or agressive, but
So, here are some examples.
Christoph Victor Kaiser, Jazz Pistols, Fodera custom single cut, $7500 just to begin the discussion.

Same tone, farther up the neck, and not digging in as much.

Alain Caron, Caron Signature F Bass. It's the only signature model F Bass makes. Starting at a low, low six thousand eight hundred US Dollars! I'm also guessing that the one he's playin here is not exactly the same as one I can go into the store and buy off the rack, or order online.

Alain Caron again, kind of a meh tune, but he's really working "that sound".

Arshak Sirunian, from Armenia, some type of custom headless rig, I never could find out what, exactly. That sounds like a recorder in there. Nice!

These have all been bass-centric examples so far. Here is Ernest Tibbs on Simon Phillips Protocol III, a little more back in the mix in an ensemble setting. I believe this is another F Bass, although he is an endorser for XOTIC XJPro.

There are many more examples, including live, so I know it doesn't have to be DI in a studio to get "that sound".
So, how can I get "that sound"? I know technique is part of it, but what's the rest of the recipe? Is it strings? Pickups? Body material? One thing I know for sure is that it is a very pure sound. You can't get it just by using effects. Any given bass either has it, or doesn't.
Strings do matter. I just replaced my Dean Markley SR2000's I had with DR Pure Blues. HUGE improvement, in many ways. I'll try some DR Hi Beams next.
However, I'm guessing pickups is the most important ingredient in the special sauce, assuming a quality instrument. I'm also guessing Fodera Seymour Duncan passive dual coil. I could totally be wrong on that, that's why I'm asking. Please fill me in!
Could I just get a very nice custom J style skinny neck bass with those or some other pickups? Or, maybe something else? If so, who builds that? And what's their phone number? (joking, I think. Surely a good custom builder has a web presence. Maybe not, though. That would explain why I can't find them through Google search.)
So, please help me find "that sound!"
Thanks!

 

[Deltatim]

That sound I call "burbbly". Almost a tuba type sound. I can get that on my BTB675 with the right tone AND technique combination. If i go looking for it, it takes a while to dial in since that is not in my normal wheelhouse. Mids, neck, touch. Best I can help you with.

 

[jazzgrowler]

Tuba, yeah, I kinda get that. Or, maybe barry sax, if you squint just right.
What's a BTB675?

 

[jazzgrowler]

Oh, Ibanez. 67 series. Yeah, I like the skinny neck. And I was actually thinking along that line, like maybe 745 or 1825 and get some custom work done on it, like maybe different pickups or something.

 

[Bob_Ross]

"burbbly" and "tuba", yep. If I'm whipping up a recipe for that sound I'd start with Bartolini pickups and ground-wound strings (e.g., Ken Smith Slick Rounds or GHS Brite Flats). Favor the bridge pickup, roll some of the ultra-high treble down, play finger-style near the bridge, and Bob's yer uncle.

I'm not sure the brand of the bass is so important; I can get something darn close to those Alain Caron examples in the OP from my <$1000 Warmoth.

But if I had OP's budget I'd definitely think about a new Elrick or ACG, or a used Pedulla.

 

[jazzgrowler]

Thanks Bob Ross! Now we're on the right track!
I could web search till the middle of next month and still never find out about Elrick or ACG. They both are beautiful basses, and the cost range is right for me.

Pedulla is well known, and highly regarded. I just can't stand that signature shape they have. I don't know what it is about it, it makes me feel squeamish, or something. Weird. Like it has something dangling off of it, like an alien growth or something. Nevermind.

So, how would one go about getting a hands-on trial (actually, ears-on, for starters) of Elrick or ACG, or other builders' bass? I don't even know how to start. I wouldn't just buy one, and try it out, and then expect to send it back if it isn't quite what I wanted, and I don't expect to be going to Scotland anytime soon to visit his shop.

 

[jazzgrowler]

And as far as Bartolini pickups, they have dozens of different models to choose. How can I find out exactly which ones would be right to get "that sound"?

 

[Bob_Ross]

Pedulla is well known, and highly regarded. I just can't stand that signature shape they have. I don't know what it is about it, it makes me feel squeamish, or something. Weird. Like it has something dangling off of it, like an alien growth or something. Nevermind.

Actually, I should have been more clear: I wasn't thinking of the Pedulla MVP, but rather their [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] models. To my ear they sound a bit more like the examples you cited, and less unique/individualistic. (Personally, I love the unique/individualistic sound of Pedulla's MVP and Buzz basses and would rather own those models...but that's in part because I already own basses that can do the burbbly tuba thing.)

re: which Bartolini pickups? I would probably start with the dual- or quad-coil soapbars, but you'd be better off calling Bartolini or Best Bass Gear.com and asking them, as they can be very helpful in distilling the differences between models and narrowing down your choices.

No idea how one would go about test-driving any of these basses; every one I've ever played was either hanging in a music store or belonged to a friend. (Full disclosure: I have never actually played an ACG, only heard a few recorded examples.)

 

[FirewalZ]

Yes...Barts can get that low/mid's burpy sound. I have a 77 Jazz with old barts from the 80's that can get close to that tone.

 

[Timmy-Watts]

My opinion? Contact Andrew Drake. Built literally to order with all your specs, and with your budget you can get the best bass ever built. My absolute dream bass is a Drake. Fender style, I have a couple other builders in mind, but custom fretless hippie sandwich, Drake all the way.

 

[The Nameless]

I disagree with the Pedulla recommendation fer these type tones. Alain Caron an others get this sound with an UN coated board. All Pedulla fretless basses come wit a coating applied to reduce fingerboard wear. But it changes the tone a bit, too. Brighter. Less organic. Pedulla makes some of the best fretless basses in the world. I'm not sayin they are bad. At all. Just sayin it is in the tone discussion when chasing particular tones. Coated or natural boards.
I have a very old Warwick Streamer Stage One 5 fretless with Bartolini quad coil, passive pickups. Every time I pick it up, I'm surprised at how similar it sounds to my older American Deluxe Jazz 5. Folk say Bartolini has a "signature" sound, but my old CBC soapbars sound very accurate to the bass' unplugged tone. I feel passive pickups are the way to go in the search for an organic, accurate fretless sound. Active pickups, such as EMG, can be great. But I prefer passive pickups fer fretless, even if they are run thru a preamp. My Warwick's preamp is bypassable. I run it passive 80% of the time.
Setup is also a big deal. Finding a setup that suits your style and adds to the "growl" without losing sustain or output is key. Too low a setup and it can kill output and sustain .Too high lessens the fretless effect. I play my action very high, but I play hard. So I had to find the setup that worked best for me. I also use steel rounds on my fretless basses. A bit more wear on my fingerboards, yes. But I think those micro scratches add to the tone. And a good fingerboard won't wear too fast. I keep my strings on for a long time on fretless basses, too. Older strings tend to fatten up without losing definition. And I can play a bit harder without a bunch of extraneous string noise. Lots of factors go in to finding a specific fretless tone. I've been chasin one fer years. And finally had to accept I'd never sound quite like anyone else. Fretless will bring out the individual's tone more than fretted. Generally. So be ready to hear your tone. And work with it.

 

[Koog]

My opinion? Contact Andrew Drake. Built literally to order with all your specs, and with your budget you can get the best bass ever built. My absolute dream bass is a Drake. Fender style, I have a couple other builders in mind, but custom fretless hippie sandwich, Drake all the way.

I support this notion. I have been playing Drake basses since 2010. They can be had (depending on how elaborate you want to be) within your $4000 price cap.

I have owned 10 or 11 Drakes and currently own 7. Each has its own, indiviual character and sound. All are wonderful in terms of fit, finish, playability, and the sounds that can be produced. I seldom play anything else. I could write paragraphs about his quality and my satisfaction with his basses, but the website will give you a nice look. Andrew is also a great guy and a disabled Desert Storm veteran, who put it all on the line for every one of us.

You can see what Andrew is about and view his basses here: Invalid Link Removed . You will also find contact info on that site. Tell him Koog sent you.

Best of luck....

 

[Koog]

PS....Andrew does build Fender style basses and guitars, if requested. The bass pictured below is my go to....it now sports Aguilar pups and a nickle nut. The body is fractionally smaller than a Fender P and is 33 inch scale. And, lemme tell ya, It's just killer. Great on stage and in the studio. Andrew names his basses. He calls this one Arlene. I call it Blackie. It's one of the best instruments I've ever had my hands on, and in 55 years playing, I've had my hands on a lot of them.

Take a look at the Gallery page and you'll see that you can get just about anything you want.

 

[Rib 13]

So, how can I get "that sound"? I know technique is part of it, but what's the rest of the recipe? Is it strings? Pickups? Body material?

Yes to all above and No to all above.......Heres the thing: I could tell you the bass pickup configs and string types I would use to get that but there is no push-button-one-recipe-for-all answer that applies to everybody

 

[StatesideRambler]

You and he must've had fun developing that Koog fretless. Great ideas, great look and surely it's got great playability and sound.

 

[Thumpin6string]

Unlike the other responses, I think it is less about the bass and more about the amp. You never mention what amp you are playing through. I can get my self built 5 string fretless with a coated board to sound very close to those clips with my Eden WT300 or my A.M.P. SL-1 pre through a 600 watt power amp. Never could get that tone through my previous rigs (GK,EBS,Aguilar,Carvin). Just a thought. Also, buying used ups the quality in your price range.

 

[Koog]

You and he must've had fun developing that Koog fretless. Great ideas, great look and surely it's got great playability and sound.

All three Koog basses were my designs that Andrew refined for look and ergonomics. We had a great time putting those three together. But, everything involving builds with Andrew is a pleasure.

All three are amazing basses.

 

[MordBass]

Unlike the other responses, I think it is less about the bass and more about the amp. You never mention what amp you are playing through. I can get my self built 5 string fretless with a coated board to sound very close to those clips with my Eden WT300 or my A.M.P. SL-1 pre through a 600 watt power amp. Never could get that tone through my previous rigs (GK,EBS,Aguilar,Carvin). Just a thought. Also, buying used ups the quality in your price range.

As a former and current lover of Eden... I will say that they absolutely help in the burb department and the eq section lets you dig deep on that bridge pup without honking too hard.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

Just buy a P bass with a PV '63 or Fralin or Lollar pickup and you're good to go ...

PS

Between a F bass and a Fodera, I'd say F bass all the day ..

 

[jazzgrowler]

You all asked about my amps. I usually play through a PJB Bass Cub, with the two 100 watt powered satellite speakers, for 300w total. I also have a pair of Genzler Magellan 350 amps, but the cabs I have are crap. They are two old beat up mismatched junksters i got from some guy maybe eight or so years ago. I paid him fifty bucks for the pair! They sound like crap but they are loud. I almost never use them anyway, and right now they are locked up in storage. The PJB does just fine, for now.
Eventually I will get better cabs. I am thinking Genzler 210-3 or 10-2 Bass Array, or maybe Bergantino HDN210's, or something. Hartke? Markbass? Mesa? There's no way to tell about speakers until you play them with your intended bass(es) and amp(s)... I will definitely need to spend some quality time at the dealer before I decide on speakers. My thought was to do this bass upgrade first, then use that bass to shop for cabs to use with the Magellans.
Thanks for the heads up on Drake! I will probably shoot him an exploratory e-mail in the next few days. "Koog sent me!" If I say that, do you think he will give me a discount, or will he charge extra!?