Twisted neck, composite headless

[AndreasMergner]

Do you think this is too ambitious for a first build??

Oh, and I have been playing bass for only 4 months.

My motivation:
Right now I have a borrowed Rick that I am using. I figure I will have to give it back at some point.

I started practicing more and have been noticing a bunch of pain on my left wrist from having it bent. I don't think it is physically possible not to bend the wrist when doing an octave on the E and D strings on the low notes of the neck. Raising the bass helps a little. Tilting the neck up helps more, but the Rick likes to hang at about 20 degrees from the floor. I have to lift the neck to keep it up, which is not ideal.

My options:
Make a first bass without neck twist. I see this as being a much easier project. I will be able to learn a bit and then use that info on a twisted neck bass. My wrist will still hurt, but maybe less if I make a bass with less neck dive.

Make a first bass with neck twist. I see this as being a more ambitious, but not impossible project. I will save some time by not having to make two basses.

My qualifications:
Well, I've never made a bass before. I have read up on it and have the Building Electric Guitars ebook. I have built my own CNC router, which I have used to make and sell solid wood RC gliders (Link Removed). Building a bass seems easier than building a flying model, although I've never tried to hook strings and a pickup to any of my planes.

I wanted to try making a headless bass using epoxy/composite fabric over wood. This would be for the neck (through body). I do have a method for this that I will show as I get to it. I work with composites for my planes, so I have experience doing it. The body will be glued to the neck. I could make the neck thinner and lighter because of the use of the composites. I don't know if that would negatively affect feel. That is one question I have. It would make the neck lighter, along with less mass needed in the body to balance it (along with the headless design).

I would cut the twisted neck on my CNC and the composites would stabilize the neck.

I did a search, but couldn't find any information about someone using regular tuners and bridge with a headless design. Seems like you could anchor the strings in the head, then have the strings go through the bridge to tuners. I might have to account for the string height on the tuners being a bit higher than on the bridge. That way, the strings would be held down onto the bridge. Am I missing something?

Let me know if there is any interest in seeing a build like this, and also please give me your comments and advice. Also, I don't have a time frame for the start or finish of the build so it make take a while. I am not in a rush.

Thanks in advance!

 

[SDB Guitars]

Aw, yeah... I've been just itching for someone (more ambitious than I) to start on a "twisted neck" build. I've seen several online, and they look interesting (and intimidating).

What degree of twist were you thinking? IIRC AGI/Lace user to make a guitar with a twisted neck, and I've seen a bass where both the neck and body twisnted (in opposite directions) to make something like a 30 degree twist.

 

[AndreasMergner]

What degree of twist were you thinking? IIRC AGI/Lace user to make a guitar with a twisted neck, and I've seen a bass where both the neck and body twisnted (in opposite directions) to make something like a 30 degree twist.

I'm not sure I need the bridge/body twisted much if at all. I keep a straight right wrist as it is. Seems like a 30-40 degree twist in the neck would be about what I aiming for.

 

[no1likesme]

subscribed

 

[waseok]

Little Guitar Works makes Twisted neck bass

 

[alexgeddy]

me thinks a a twisted neck is a poor excuse for bad technique!!! you can buy a strap to hold your bass in the optimum playing position..... The rest is technque unless you have really bad wrists...then I would wear wrist guards to keep on playin....maybe watch yourself in a mirrow...a slight bend in the lfet wrist is ok ....or a moderate bend...just not a 90 degree.....

On a serious note...maybe you should find a teacher for some technique, and proper bass plaing fundamentals!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

good luck!!!!

feel free to PM me if you have any ques or do not like the contents of this addd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JK

feel free to PM me with anything you have about bass!!!!!!!I used to teach bass!

Bill

 

[Nelson Guitars]

Do you think this is too ambitious for a first build??

In a word, Yes.

What you do have going for you is that you don't have a clue as to what you are contemplating and therefore no fear! I would love to see you try it. If you are patient perhaps you could pull it off. I have enough trouble getting things to play right with traditional necks. Dressing the frets on those twisted necks has to be a bear!

Greg N

 

[AndreasMergner]

I can't say that my technique is perfect, but I have been taking lessons all along. I do wear a strap when I play, but it doesn't solve the problem even when I position the bass right under my chin. I will work on my technique, but from what I have read here on the forums, a perfectly straight wrist at all times is virtually impossible. My wrist is straight until I have to really spread my fingers and reach around. Maybe I get pain because I'll play for 3+ hours and my strength/endurance is not there. I think a twisted neck will help.

Greg: I wouldn't say I have no clue, but you are not far off. I have made about 150 of these though, so I do have some experience with CNC router work to high tolerance/quality.

Link Removed

I'm thinking that a CNC'ed neck covered in a bias carbon fiber cloth will be quite stiff. Actually, I know it will be based on my work with it. Will dressing the frets be necessary if the fretboard is perfectly flat? From what you are saying, I'm guessing yes.

 

[El Kabong]

if you do it you should go all the way and make it twisted neck/ fanned fret.

 

[GabeN]

What airfoil do those gliders use and how much do they run? Slope's not really my thing but if one of those could be modified for electric power...

 

[Nelson Guitars]

The "no clue" comment is a prediction that there are far more challenges waiting for you than you can even guess about at this point. No offense intended.

Dressing frets is the art/science of making sure the action is low and each fret intonates properly while not creating any buzzing. To get the low action a bit of relief is typically introduced allowing the long string notes to vibrate in long arches while still keeping the upper frets close for ease of use. How to make relief and accurately place the frets and get a properly intonated saddles and have the pickups placed equal distances from the strings and have them all working together is more than boggling my mind. Getting it close will be somewhat difficult. Refining it will be another thing all together.

Greg N

 

[Arx]

I'm thinking that a CNC'ed neck covered in a bias carbon fiber cloth will be quite stiff. Actually, I know it will be based on my work with it. Will dressing the frets be necessary if the fretboard is perfectly flat? From what you are saying, I'm guessing yes.

I've been told so. Maybe I just have low standards, but I've been playing the fanned fret bass I built as my first project without any fret dressing and it hasn't bothered me any.
I have the action set about the way I like it and don't get any fret buzz anywhere.

I might be able to get it slightly lower if I leveled it, but it's already quite comfortable and easy to play, so I figure why mess with it.

Oh, and I say go for it. Some people have said you shouldn't do a fanned fret on your first build either, but it worked for me. Also, if it turns out decent, there might be a market for some twisted neck blanks. I know I'm interested

-Nick

 

[AndreasMergner]

Thanks for all of the input everyone! No offense taken, don't worry. I am on a RC forum much like Talkbass. I'm one of the vendors/pseudoexperts that tell the new people that they are in for a bit of work on a big project. It's fun to be that new guy. Heck, I was a new guy when I came up with a CNC solid hardwood glider. I'm the only one that seems to be able to make one in the last 3 years or so.

El Kabong: I don't want to do a fanned fret. I would like to continue learning on a mostly regular bass that is just a bit more comfortable. Maybe I could try one down the road...

Gabe: It has an RG15 thinned to 7%. It is way too heavy for an electric at 50-60ozs, plus there is no room for the battery. I have a new molded version coming that I will try as a hotliner. It uses a new material that nobody else is using.

Greg/Nick: I hear both of you. Seems like dressing frets and relief can be done at least several ways. The problem is that you need adequate clearance for the string no matter what fret you are on. You could set it up perfectly, but then if you give the bass to someone who hits the strings harder, you'll have to increase action and that "perfect" relief will not be perfect anymore. Seems like the neck shape is a compromise between low action and reduced fret buzzing. What I'll probably do is what Nick did. Play/try it without the fret dressing and then do it if it needs it. I don't think it will be impossible, but I will only be able to do a few frets at a time since the frets will not be parallel.

I was planning on a flat fretboard, which might reduce some complications. I can see the point of a radiused fretboard on a bowed instrument where you only want to play one or two strings at a time.

 

[Nelson Guitars]

I was planning on a flat fretboard, which might reduce some complications. I can see the point of a radiused fretboard on a bowed instrument where you only want to play one or two strings at a time.

Not sure you can define what would be flat and what would be radius given the twist. I think of these like those DNA molecule models with the twisted ladder shape being the frets. I guess you could curve the rungs on the ladder but to what end? Again, my brain hurts.

Radius on a bowed instrument does help you attack one or two strings at a time, but curved fretboards on fretted instruments are there to make barre chords easier to play. Nylon strings are so soft that the tradition of a flat board has remained over time. Steel strings are more difficult to press so the radiused FB came into use as those instruments and the string technology to produce them became popular.

Greg N

 

[AndreasMergner]

LOL. Yes, just like DNA! Well the frets will be straight and the strings will be straight. I find it easiest to imagine by taking your thumb and index of both hands and pretending there is a string connecting your two index fingers and your thumbs. Now just twist the two strings. If you had two middle strings they would just go along for the ride.

Hmmm... now that I think about it, the middle strings will be a bit shorter, wont they? I guess it doesn't matter a lot since the fret distances are also shorter.

I should be ok with a flat fretboard since bassists don't typically barre chords, right?

Anyone seen a headless done with regular tuners and a regular bridge? If I used a Hipshot A bridge, couldn't I continue the strings through the bridge and onto regular tuners (instead of anchoring them in the bridge)? http://www.hipshotproducts.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=117

 

[PaleMelanesian]

me thinks a a twisted neck is a poor excuse for bad technique!!! you can buy a strap to hold your bass in the optimum playing position..... The rest is technque unless you have really bad wrists...then I would wear wrist guards to keep on playin....maybe watch yourself in a mirrow...a slight bend in the lfet wrist is ok ....or a moderate bend...just not a 90 degree.....

The best right-hand position is already the one we use. The best left-hand position would be with the fretboard facing the floor, not the audience. You can't just change technique to achieve that. I think there's a valid case for twisting.

it'll be a lot of work, though...

 

[GabeN]

Gabe: It has an RG15 thinned to 7%. It is way too heavy for an electric at 50-60ozs, plus there is no room for the battery. I have a new molded version coming that I will try as a hotliner. It uses a new material that nobody else is using.

As a thermal guy that's crazy heavy! I bet it screams when you fly it on a good slope though! You should try designing a laser cut HLG kit some time. The HLG guys are dying for some more entry level wood discus launch kits.

Back on topic: I suggest you either get a teacher to show you proper technique so your wrist is fatigued less or buy that bass that's got the twisted neck. I forget the name but it's supposed to be really comfy. Both options will be much cheaper than setting up and buying all the tools and materials to build your own instrument. (edit, found the Torzal Twist video: Invalid Link Removed)

By all means please attempt to build a bass if that's what you're dead set on but don't do it with the mindset that it will be the best option to your current dilemma. It's a hobby, not a cure for bad fretting technique.

 

[Arx]

LOL. Yes, just like DNA! Well the frets will be straight and the strings will be straight. I find it easiest to imagine by taking your thumb and index of both hands and pretending there is a string connecting your two index fingers and your thumbs. Now just twist the two strings. If you had two middle strings they would just go along for the ride.

Hmmm... now that I think about it, the middle strings will be a bit shorter, wont they? I guess it doesn't matter a lot since the fret distances are also shorter.

I should be ok with a flat fretboard since bassists don't typically barre chords, right?

Anyone seen a headless done with regular tuners and a regular bridge? If I used a Hipshot A bridge, couldn't I continue the strings through the bridge and onto regular tuners (instead of anchoring them in the bridge)? http://www.hipshotproducts.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=117

The middle strings will be shorter, just as they are because of a standard fretboard taper. You don't need to worry about it though, because the scale length is lengthened proportionally as well.

I have seen standard tuners used that way. I can't remember where though. The guy had actually made an overhang in the tail end where the tuners were mounted. It looked pretty good.

-Nick

 

[Arx]

As a thermal guy that's crazy heavy! I bet it screams when you fly it on a good slope though! You should try designing a laser cut HLG kit some time. The HLG guys are dying for some more entry level wood discus launch kits.

Back on topic: I suggest you either get a teacher to show you proper technique so your wrist is fatigued less or buy that bass that's got the twisted neck. I forget the name but it's supposed to be really comfy. Both options will be much cheaper than setting up and buying all the tools and materials to build your own instrument. (edit, found the Torzal Twist video: Invalid Link Removed)

By all means please attempt to build a bass if that's what you're dead set on but don't do it with the mindset that it will be the best option to your current dilemma. It's a hobby, not a cure for bad fretting technique.

Too many naysayers in the world.

The "Little" bass looks really nice, but it isn't cheap either. I built my first bass, including most of the tools, and all the materials and parts for around $1500, and that's including some splurging on extravagant parts like q-tuners 6 string pickups and overpriced hipshot single string bridges. Also I bought a fairly pricey pre-built fretless neck, which I fretted myself. I'd assume if he's doing CNC gliders he has at least some tools already.

So, If you think you'll enjoy building it, and aren't worried about assigning a $ value to your time, this is one of those rare cases where you can build one cheaper than you can buy one. That is a big "if" though. It's a lot of work.

I'll also agree though, it's not a replacement for bad technique. However, a more ergonomic instrument and good technique is better than just good technique alone.

-Nick

 

[Jay Terrien]

Do an online search for Status Graphite and Parker guitars to give you a few more construction ideas regarding your composite build.

Do you think this is too ambitious for a first build??

Oh, and I have been playing bass for only 4 months.

My motivation:
Right now I have a borrowed Rick that I am using. I figure I will have to give it back at some point.

I started practicing more and have been noticing a bunch of pain on my left wrist from having it bent. I don't think it is physically possible not to bend the wrist when doing an octave on the E and D strings on the low notes of the neck. Raising the bass helps a little. Tilting the neck up helps more, but the Rick likes to hang at about 20 degrees from the floor. I have to lift the neck to keep it up, which is not ideal.

My options:
Make a first bass without neck twist. I see this as being a much easier project. I will be able to learn a bit and then use that info on a twisted neck bass. My wrist will still hurt, but maybe less if I make a bass with less neck dive.

Make a first bass with neck twist. I see this as being a more ambitious, but not impossible project. I will save some time by not having to make two basses.

My qualifications:
Well, I've never made a bass before. I have read up on it and have the Building Electric Guitars ebook. I have built my own CNC router, which I have used to make and sell solid wood RC gliders (Link Removed). Building a bass seems easier than building a flying model, although I've never tried to hook strings and a pickup to any of my planes.

I wanted to try making a headless bass using epoxy/composite fabric over wood. This would be for the neck (through body). I do have a method for this that I will show as I get to it. I work with composites for my planes, so I have experience doing it. The body will be glued to the neck. I could make the neck thinner and lighter because of the use of the composites. I don't know if that would negatively affect feel. That is one question I have. It would make the neck lighter, along with less mass needed in the body to balance it (along with the headless design).

I would cut the twisted neck on my CNC and the composites would stabilize the neck.

I did a search, but couldn't find any information about someone using regular tuners and bridge with a headless design. Seems like you could anchor the strings in the head, then have the strings go through the bridge to tuners. I might have to account for the string height on the tuners being a bit higher than on the bridge. That way, the strings would be held down onto the bridge. Am I missing something?

Let me know if there is any interest in seeing a build like this, and also please give me your comments and advice. Also, I don't have a time frame for the start or finish of the build so it make take a while. I am not in a rush.

Thanks in advance!