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Twisted neck, composite headless
- Thread starter AndreasMergner
- Start date
Unless you plan on gluing in the frets with epoxy or something, you won't want the slots much bigger than .023 When I slotted my board, I had a couple loose frets even with that (maybe wasn't holding the saw flat enough against my guide?) they were pretty close, so I just held them down and dripped a few drops of super thin CA in the end of the slot.
I'm not so sure about your carbon fibre fretboard plan... As much as it would look really cool, and I'd love to have one like that, It may be adding more complexity than is necessary. I'd probably just stick to wood on the first go, if I were you.
I think with a carbon fibre fretboard you would have to oversize your fret slots and glue them. The tangs would probably chip things up otherwise, and not grip. Also, if you ever have any fret problems, melting the glue, without screwing up the fretboard might be next to impossible.
-Nick
The Mcmaster bits only have cutting length of .11". They are pre-broken.
Good to know. The only bits like this I had been able to find so far were designed more like a drill bit for punching holes through electronics boards. They are about 1/2" long so you get quite a bit of leverage on them and they tend to break right where they meet the bigger shaft.
Greg N
Greg, I attached a pic of the Mcmaster bit so you know what I'm talking about. It has a 1/8" shank.
Nick, the carbon fabric will only be about .01" thick. You don't need much to make a big difference, especially when it is the outer layer. Strength/stiffness go up by the square of the distance between the two opposing composite layers.
Ok, I'll tell you how I plan to do it. I cut the neck to shape on the CNC. I put one of the carbon/fiberglass sleeves on the neck from [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. I pull at both ends of the sleeve to get it to conform to the neck. I wet this fabric out with epoxy. I then put a tube of shrink tubing (available on the same page at the bottom) over the neck/carbon/fg/epoxy. I hit the tubing with a heat gun to shrink it to the neck. I let it cure and then take off the tubing. What is left is hopefully a mostly smooth, strong, stiff and very stable neck. The bias of the weave along the neck prevent ANY twisting. It will still bend some. I am debating putting in a truss rod. I will likely make a sample piece and see how it goes.
The fabric comes in different colors. I attached a pic of the red version. I'm thinking purple or blue would be cool without getting too crazy.
This technique is used on model planes for tailbooms and also for fuselages sometimes.
Questions?
Nick, the carbon fabric will only be about .01" thick. You don't need much to make a big difference, especially when it is the outer layer. Strength/stiffness go up by the square of the distance between the two opposing composite layers.
Ok, I'll tell you how I plan to do it. I cut the neck to shape on the CNC. I put one of the carbon/fiberglass sleeves on the neck from [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. I pull at both ends of the sleeve to get it to conform to the neck. I wet this fabric out with epoxy. I then put a tube of shrink tubing (available on the same page at the bottom) over the neck/carbon/fg/epoxy. I hit the tubing with a heat gun to shrink it to the neck. I let it cure and then take off the tubing. What is left is hopefully a mostly smooth, strong, stiff and very stable neck. The bias of the weave along the neck prevent ANY twisting. It will still bend some. I am debating putting in a truss rod. I will likely make a sample piece and see how it goes.
The fabric comes in different colors. I attached a pic of the red version. I'm thinking purple or blue would be cool without getting too crazy.
This technique is used on model planes for tailbooms and also for fuselages sometimes.
Questions?
Attachments
Not that my input will mean much, but I have the same problem. I've been playing for a year (self taught) and I'm about to get lessons.
What I ind with playing the bass is it's impossible, and painful to keep your'e wrist parrallel to the neck all the time. I like to utillize pivoting my wrist to solve this, you'll see what I mean if you just think about it and try it out. I understand allot of pros and teachers will say that propper technique is everything, but when you find your own that works and doesn't hurt(which is a plus) it's allot more rewarding.
So try it I guess, maybe your teacher has mentioned it allready idk. But soon you should find a rythem in pivoting if you practice.
What I ind with playing the bass is it's impossible, and painful to keep your'e wrist parrallel to the neck all the time. I like to utillize pivoting my wrist to solve this, you'll see what I mean if you just think about it and try it out. I understand allot of pros and teachers will say that propper technique is everything, but when you find your own that works and doesn't hurt(which is a plus) it's allot more rewarding.
So try it I guess, maybe your teacher has mentioned it allready idk. But soon you should find a rythem in pivoting if you practice.
Very cool. I kind of want to try that myself now.
I'm still curious about how you're going to cut the fret slots and install the frets. I've never worked with the stuff before.. Can you cut it with a normal saw? Do you think you'll have a chipping problem putting the frets in?
-Nick
You should have no problem cutting the carbon. It is not steel or anything! Heck, you can still cut steel if it's not hardened. You can cut carbon with a razor blade if you want, but I figure a regular fret saw would go through it. The epoxy should keep it from fraying and it shouldn't chip either. It will be glued very well to the wood substrate. Your frets will basically be mounted in the wood. The carbon layer is very thin. You only need a thick carbon layer if it's hollow.
The only issue I can see is the finish on the carbon. I don't know if you can expect a perfect, shiny surface after using the shrink wrap. Typically we can if we are vacuum baggin with mylars, but a vacuum will have much more pressure than shrink wrap plastic. I'm not going for perfection, so I'm not too worried about it.
The only issue I can see is the finish on the carbon. I don't know if you can expect a perfect, shiny surface after using the shrink wrap. Typically we can if we are vacuum baggin with mylars, but a vacuum will have much more pressure than shrink wrap plastic. I'm not going for perfection, so I'm not too worried about it.
SDB Guitars
Commercial User
add more epoxy to the outer layer, and then smooth/polish that... you should be able to get a "smooth as glass" finish
I'm still planning on making this bass.
I now have a bridge, tuners and pickups. I've started with the CAD design since I can determine the size of everything. I'll post some pics of the design work soon. I'm going with a 25 degree twist of the neck.
I now have a bridge, tuners and pickups. I've started with the CAD design since I can determine the size of everything. I'll post some pics of the design work soon. I'm going with a 25 degree twist of the neck.
Hi.
Very late to this thread
.
Glad You decided to go ahead. If You can make the CNC router and the gliders, a bass will be a simple task IMHO
Not that it probably matters anymore, here's my approach to the headless design with normal bridge and tuners.
It was the late eighties, hard to tell, huh?
I've never used this line before, but perhaps this is as good a thread as any:
This thread is worthless without pics.
Please take a few progress shots for us to drool over.
Regards
Sam
Very late to this thread
.Glad You decided to go ahead. If You can make the CNC router and the gliders, a bass will be a simple task IMHO
Not that it probably matters anymore, here's my approach to the headless design with normal bridge and tuners.
It was the late eighties, hard to tell, huh?
I've never used this line before, but perhaps this is as good a thread as any:
This thread is worthless without pics.
Please take a few progress shots for us to drool over.
Regards
Sam
Hey T-Bird!
That is basically what I'll be doing with the tuners, although I'm going to space them closer to reduce the overhang.
I was thinking of putting some sort of small decorative headstock so that it doesn't look so naked. I think it might look better than the neck just ending in a square....if you know what I mean?
I will be taking and posting pics, don't worry! That is what makes a thread fun and informative.
That is basically what I'll be doing with the tuners, although I'm going to space them closer to reduce the overhang.
I was thinking of putting some sort of small decorative headstock so that it doesn't look so naked. I think it might look better than the neck just ending in a square....if you know what I mean?
I will be taking and posting pics, don't worry! That is what makes a thread fun and informative.
Hi.
Very late to this thread
Glad You decided to go ahead. If You can make the CNC router and the gliders, a bass will be a simple task IMHO
Not that it probably matters anymore, here's my approach to the headless design with normal bridge and tuners.
It was the late eighties, hard to tell, huh?
I've never used this line before, but perhaps this is as good a thread as any:
This thread is worthless without pics.
Please take a few progress shots for us to drool over.
Regards
Sam
Holy crap...
Not to go too far off topic, but how do you like the half-body? I came up with that idea myself not too long ago as well. Any problems with it? I'm planning on building a headless tuner set and going with a little less 80s shape, but I think functionally it'll be pretty similar.
Oh, build is well under progress btw. I just haven't taken enough pics.
Hi.
IMHO a decorative headstock would liven up quite a lot headless designs, they tend to look rather dull, so I think it's a great idea.
Arx, I sold that bass about a year after the photo was taken, but the playability and balance were great, and tuning it was way easier than with the conventional headstock or Steinberger style tuners.
The neck profile extended up to the pickup so I fabricated a fretboard extension too, but didn't install it.
The only obvious problem is the playing position if sitting down. There was going to be a aluminium arc to help with that, but my friend just had to have that bass
I agree, Your design is functionally the same, looks cool.
Regards
Sam
IMHO a decorative headstock would liven up quite a lot headless designs, they tend to look rather dull, so I think it's a great idea.
Arx, I sold that bass about a year after the photo was taken, but the playability and balance were great, and tuning it was way easier than with the conventional headstock or Steinberger style tuners.
The neck profile extended up to the pickup so I fabricated a fretboard extension too, but didn't install it.
The only obvious problem is the playing position if sitting down. There was going to be a aluminium arc to help with that, but my friend just had to have that bass
I agree, Your design is functionally the same, looks cool.
Regards
Sam
I did a bit of design work. It doesn't look like much yet...
My plan is to use this to cut a through the body neck and then glue on the actual body after it is off the CNC. This CAD/CAM model is not finished yet. It has the neck shape, but where the neck meets the body, I won't be cutting any wood off the back. The pic I'm attaching shows otherwise, so don't get confused. I'm not done, but wanted to show a pic of progress!
I have the frets layed out. I'm using the stretch compensated model from here: Link Removed
I'm still debating installing an adjustable truss rod. I think it will be more hassle for something unneeded. The carbon over wood should be plenty stiff enough. Then again, it would make for a bad day if I realized I needed one after the project was complete! Thoughts?
I have a MM and P pickup from GFS that I'm using. I'll need to determine placement. I found this thread: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2363685&postcount=5
My plan is to use this to cut a through the body neck and then glue on the actual body after it is off the CNC. This CAD/CAM model is not finished yet. It has the neck shape, but where the neck meets the body, I won't be cutting any wood off the back. The pic I'm attaching shows otherwise, so don't get confused. I'm not done, but wanted to show a pic of progress!
I have the frets layed out. I'm using the stretch compensated model from here: Link Removed
I'm still debating installing an adjustable truss rod. I think it will be more hassle for something unneeded. The carbon over wood should be plenty stiff enough. Then again, it would make for a bad day if I realized I needed one after the project was complete! Thoughts?
I have a MM and P pickup from GFS that I'm using. I'll need to determine placement. I found this thread: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2363685&postcount=5
Attachments
The Torzal basses have a truss rod and they work just like in a regular bass. [This invalid link has been removed]
You should put in a trussrod for adjustability. On a very stiff neck, you may want to make it a 2-way so that you can force some relief in the neck if it doesn't have enough.
The truss rod isn't purely for stiffening. If it were, it would make sense just to reinforce it with non-adjustable rods.
Well, if I need a trussrod, it will complicate things further. I will need to cut a slot for it and then cover it up with a piece of wood. I'm thinking it will be easier if I cut the slot at the back of the neck. That way I don't mess up the CNCed twisted fretboard.
It (sort of) makes me want to put LEDs in the neck now since I'll have a channel where the wire could go.
I'll need some kind of marker on the side of the neck so I don't have to strain to see the downturned fretboard.
It (sort of) makes me want to put LEDs in the neck now since I'll have a channel where the wire could go.
I'll need some kind of marker on the side of the neck so I don't have to strain to see the downturned fretboard.Wow, twisted, carbon fibre coated neck headless with normal tuners for a first build!! And now you're thinking of adding LEDs !! You, sir, are a maniac. LOL I really hope this build is a stunning success just so I can see a pic of the thing.
Some thoughts on a truss rod, an adjustable rod only moves the neck along a 2D plane, 90 degrees to the fretboard on a normal bass. But, on a twisted neck, how do you determine which plane the rod sould act upon? Is it the nut end, the body end or right in the middle? I would think experimentaion would be the only way to figure this out, and that means building at least three necks. Maybe one of the companies that have experience doing this will be nice enough to advise you, but then again you might be seen as competition.
Perhaps a more fool proof solution would be to install one or two carbon fibre rods aka non-adjustable truss rod. My thinking is that between the twist, the carbon sleeve and a carbon rod you would be able to achieve such a stiff neck that you wouldn't have to worry about it moving at all. You could create your relief by carving it into your fretboard, or you could use extra tall frets and file the middle ones down more to create relief. This stiff neck, carved in relief approach has been used with bowed string instruments since about forever.
As for your wrist pain, while I commend your very creative approach to the problem, there are months of playing a traditional bass to go before your twisted neck is done, and I am not convinced that it is going to solve your problem. Are you sure that your pain is caused by bending your wrist? It takes a long time to build up the flexability and strength to play bass. A three + hour practice session every day for a beginer is pretty much asking for an injury, no matter how good your technique is. Any time you feel pain, unless its just blisters, you need to stop, strech, and rest your muscles. After you've had a chance to recover, then pick it up again. It's like lifting weights, you don't just sit down and crank out 45 reps, you break it up into sets of 10-15 reps and let your muscles recover in between, or you'll hurt your self. It takes a lot less time to injure yourself than it does to heal.
Sorry for such a long post, I find your ambition inspiring.
Some thoughts on a truss rod, an adjustable rod only moves the neck along a 2D plane, 90 degrees to the fretboard on a normal bass. But, on a twisted neck, how do you determine which plane the rod sould act upon? Is it the nut end, the body end or right in the middle? I would think experimentaion would be the only way to figure this out, and that means building at least three necks. Maybe one of the companies that have experience doing this will be nice enough to advise you, but then again you might be seen as competition.
Perhaps a more fool proof solution would be to install one or two carbon fibre rods aka non-adjustable truss rod. My thinking is that between the twist, the carbon sleeve and a carbon rod you would be able to achieve such a stiff neck that you wouldn't have to worry about it moving at all. You could create your relief by carving it into your fretboard, or you could use extra tall frets and file the middle ones down more to create relief. This stiff neck, carved in relief approach has been used with bowed string instruments since about forever.
As for your wrist pain, while I commend your very creative approach to the problem, there are months of playing a traditional bass to go before your twisted neck is done, and I am not convinced that it is going to solve your problem. Are you sure that your pain is caused by bending your wrist? It takes a long time to build up the flexability and strength to play bass. A three + hour practice session every day for a beginer is pretty much asking for an injury, no matter how good your technique is. Any time you feel pain, unless its just blisters, you need to stop, strech, and rest your muscles. After you've had a chance to recover, then pick it up again. It's like lifting weights, you don't just sit down and crank out 45 reps, you break it up into sets of 10-15 reps and let your muscles recover in between, or you'll hurt your self. It takes a lot less time to injure yourself than it does to heal.
Sorry for such a long post, I find your ambition inspiring.
