Don't you just hate being right?

[jmattbassplaya]

**Argh, yet another rant ahead. TL/DR at the bottom for you lazies **

At what point does being right all the time eventually go from being somewhat self-satisfying to just sad and frustrating.

My bandmates literally have me at my wits end right now. Over the course of our band's tenure I've made numerous suggestions on how we should run our band. Now to give credit where credit is due, a lot of my suggestions have come from things I've picked up either from much older or experienced players that I've played with or from suggestions from a lot of you guys right here on TB Anyways, I've given numerous suggestions over the past year and, by and large, have had most of my ideas turned down or simply ignored.

That has been frustrating enough, but what has really gotten to me is that after a month or so of making a suggestion someone else in the band will make the EXACT same suggestion and suddenly it's a brilliant idea. That, or we'll go with someone's initial suggestion and a month later someone else will say, "oh, we should have done (whatever I suggested)", but they won't give me credit for having that idea originally.

Most recently this has manifested itself in the idea of having my original band also act as a cover band to play frat parties. I argued back in December that we needed to continue doing frat gigs because it would be an easy and fun way for us to pull in a ton of cash which could be turned around and invested into the band (ie. new gear, gas costs, strings, gear upkeep, repairs, car upkeep, advertising expenses, etc...).

This was met with hostility because we supposedly had "moved on" from doing covers because we were "above that ****." Fine. Whatever. I ended up starting a cover band anyways because I was going to take advantage of my situation every way I could (and, funny enough, two of my original band members decided to join me in that band), but now, 5 months later, my original group has finally changed its tune, and the ones who originally were so against doing covers are begging everyone else in the band to hop on board so we can do frat gigs to make money in the fall.

The best is my keys player. I told him originally that I wanted these fraternity gigs so I could at least fill up my truck once a week with gas. He told me that was stupid and not needed (this coming from the same guy who said how important it was for us to travel 3 hours for Nashville gigs at least once a month...), but now he suddenly NEEDS a new keyboard and he thinks that is a worthy enough cause to get this cover group going :scowl: What really gets me with this one is that he used to give me crap on always having money to spend. He thought it was my parents paying for things when it was actually money from those same frat gigs he originally turned his nose to.

Another one has been my consistent suggestion that our band never plays last on any bill. I told them that no patron ever stays for the last band and that most venues (in our area) will see their largest crowd between 11:00-1:00. Again, this fell on deaf ears and we played 3 or 4 gigs to audiences of less than 10 people before they realized that being last and starting at 1:00 doesn't make you a headliner or someone worth 'waiting around for'.

Stuff like this has just become increasingly frustrating and I don't know how to handle it anymore. You'd think that after a few times of being right they'd catch on that maybe I have some good insights into the music business, but no. It's just getting to the point where I'm having a VERY hard time biting my tongue because I want to yell at the guys for being a bunch of (for lack of a better word) idiots.

**TL/DR** How do you handle a band who never listens to your suggestions even when you (almost) always turn out to be right about things after the fact?

 

[smogg]

LOL, happens to us (bass players) more often than not.

I believe the quote in my sig sums it up.

 

[bluewine]

**
Another one has been my consistent suggestion that our band never plays last on any bill. I told them that no patron ever stays for the last band and that most venues (in our area) will see their largest crowd between 11:00-1:00. Again, this fell on deaf ears and we played 3 or 4 gigs to audiences of less than 10 people before they realized that being last and starting at 1:00 doesn't make you a headliner or someone worth 'waiting around for'.

True in Milwaukee, unless the original band has a huge following (most don't even have a small gig supporting following).

You go on last and your playing to, like you said a handful of people.

I went to see a friend's original band recently, it was a 3 band show.My friends band went on last.

They played to me and my friend.

 

[slaps76]

I leave.

Not saying that's what you should do, but if they're that stubborn, you have to make a choice to either adapt and roll with the punches, or leave. At least you've got the 2nd cover band going, so maybe you can rely on that band for the $$ gigs while sticking with more original stuff with this band? Balance out, everyone's happy...

I was in a cover band that wouldn't listen to anything I suggested - for some reason they didn't think having a ton of dead air in between songs was a bad idea...they didn't see what the problem was with 30-40 minute breaks between sets while the bar emptied out...they didn't want to play any current pop that would cater to the right crowds...

Well, I left, started a new band with guys who are all on the same page, and we make close to double what my old band did per gig, playing in all the bars the stubborn band has tried and tried to get into with no avail. I win. But the point is I'm lucky to have found bandmates who are on the same page, and having even one person who fights everything makes things very difficult.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

LOL, happens to us (bass players) more often than not.

I believe the quote in my sig sums it up.

Unfortunately, you're probably right

I've had similar trouble getting my material played as well. After a LOT of failed attempts at presenting stuff at rehearsal I eventually said screw it and wrote out 3 song ideas that I had previously tried to present to my band on Guitar Pro so that all they had to do was listen to it. They all were shocked that I could write complete songs that were actually pretty good. They ended up asking me why I hadn't tried to present anything to them before

 

[Big Brother]

I thought I was alone.

I got in an argument with the band yesterday about their choice of lyrics for an original. They thought it would be fun to make a song about a competing band and his Craigslist posts, where he is simply looking for another singer, and calling him a 'douche' with the hook of the song being "Stop Spamming!"

After removing my hand from my forehead, which took about half an hour, I subtly suggested an alternate topic or two for the music which was pretty much met with "We know what is best and what a crowd likes" derision. Our guitarist spoke of 'fertile new ground' out there for internet based song topics like this...

They were actually pissed I didn't like it, as though it wasn't a passive-aggressive, petty embarrassment to us all. I finally stopped the alternate suggestions and hints about "World of Warcraft" chat logs and told them I thought it was petty and I wanted absolutely no part of it.

Now comes the familiar part where I am met with stony silence and am not included on emails, and I will feel my ears burning once again at our gig this week. The bands friends will look at me like a heretic.

I bring up simple ways to drastically improve our sound in a non-accusatory way, such as watching our way too fast tempo and playing with appropriate feel instead of on the beat precision, and am met with poorly hidden disdain. Our guitarist says "Well when I practice I try to play as fast as possible so I can practice as many songs as I can." And that makes playing double speed at a gig ok, he refuses to practice anything to do with correct tempo but wants to lead in every song and wonders why I dare mention it.

They choose the absolute dullest songs to play at times, songs that people can't dance to and that no other cover bands play, and wonder why nobody but obscene drunks dance or crowd the stage. They think it is because we need to be 'tighter' and lunch into songs faster. I say we need to play songs people actually like to hear and am met with looks of '***?' My portion of the songlist, all high energy mainstream stuff, is ignored as we play songs like "What's Going On" and wonder why people sit down and yawn. It can't be the songs, it can't be the double speed tempo.

They just do not listen to anything they didn't say first.

I seriously get the 'You are just the bass player' vibe. As though my ears function differently than other people and the nuances that make good music are beyond my comprehension.

I am thinking the solution is laying it out on the table with open palms in the air, and if nothing changes, finding people who make it fun again. Being disrespected and not being able to play a role in the direction of your band is not fun, especially when you have a valid point to discuss. That is my plan.

 

[smogg]

I've had similar trouble getting my material played as well. After a LOT of failed attempts at presenting stuff at rehearsal I eventually said screw it and wrote out 3 song ideas that I had previously tried to present to my band on Guitar Pro so that all they had to do was listen to it. They all were shocked that I could write complete songs that were actually pretty good. They ended up asking me why I hadn't tried to present anything to them before

LMAO, Now THAT'S f-ing high-larious.

 

[nickbass79]

LOL, happens to us (bass players) more often than not.

I believe the quote in my sig sums it up.

Yep! Me and the auxiliary percussionist(also a bass player) are always correcting the guitar and drum parts. Many times the exact phrasing is off from the original, or the way we played it before, so we stop and correct it.

Only once has a guitarist argued with me and said, "just stick to your part, Bassist". Needless to say, He was gone pretty quickly after that.

 

[MrNecroVOL]

Honestly this has happened to me over and over and over again. I know how that feels like. And at the of the day i just got the boot for not being invested in the band as much as the rest of them.

 

[smogg]

I feel ya Big Brother,

It happens too often when dealing with players below a certain level of maturity, competency, and experience. Many guitar/singer & keys/singer feel they are musically superior to bassists and drummers. Especially if the bassist has no interest in singing lead. They cling to a misguided assumption that the bass player is the least talented member of the group or a failed guitarist who got "stuck" playing bass.

Many truly can not come to grips with the fact that most of us choose to play bass not out of necessity but for how it speaks to us and/or allows us to express ourselves creatively. These same persons disregard the fact that bassists often make great producers and in many top touring acts the bass player is also the Musical Director for the road band.

Life is way too short to deal with disrespect. Don't waste time with individuals who are so narcissistic that they try to treat you poorly at every chance they get. Those types of personalities are also the same type who kick their dogs and beat on their women. I simply refuse to associate with that kind of mindset, period.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

@Big Brother,

I hear you man. I know what you mean when you say that everything you voice to your band tends to fall on deaf ears and that your bandmates never seem interested in anything unless it was their idea to begin with. Personally, I think that's a sign of a maturity issue. I also think (at least in my band) that it's just something personal with them where they need to go through the whole trial-and-error process in order to see what works and what doesn't - which is fine to an extent. My issue, however, is that they never seem to acknowledge when I am right, and I just wish they'd finally catch on that I might in fact know a thing or two that they don't.

Reading back on what I've written, it largely reads like I just want them to acknowledge that I'm smarter than them, which really isn't the case. Like you somewhat skirted on, I don't want to be seen as being just the bassist. I want to be seen as a valuable member with something of value to add to the band. With the way our band dynamic currently works, however, I just don't feel the connection. I definitely feel like an outsider in my own band.

 

[Big Brother]

@Big Brother,

I hear you man. I know what you mean when you say that everything you voice to your band tends to fall on deaf ears and that your bandmates never seem interested in anything unless it was their idea to begin with. Personally, I think that's a sign of a maturity issue. I also think (at least in my band) that it's just something personal with them where they need to go through the whole trial-and-error process in order to see what works and what doesn't - which is fine to an extent. My issue, however, is that they never seem to acknowledge when I am right, and I just wish they'd finally catch on that I might in fact know a thing or two that they don't.

Reading back on what I've written, it largely reads like I just want them to acknowledge that I'm smarter than them, which really isn't the case. Like you somewhat skirted on, I don't want to be seen as being just the bassist. I want to be seen as a valuable member with something of value to add to the band. With the way our band dynamic currently works, however, I just don't feel the connection. I definitely feel like an outsider in my own band.

There is no reason or excuse for it either. We are in our 40s.

The trial and error thing is true, and excusable. But they have all been in bands before, the mistakes seem so easy to correct but they just refuse to believe there could be a problem that they don't see.

We almost lost a steady gig and didn't get paid after a night of playing when the bartender said we 'mailed it in' that night. Our drummer was 45 minutes late with a legitimate emergency so we played without him and hacked away at some songs we've never done without a drummer until then, and everything was kinda stressed and rushed through the rest of that night after he got there. The crowd was exceptionally dead too, I don't blame the bartender for saying it to be honest. She was kinda right from her POV. Nobody drank, people were not entertained.

Our bands idea of the root problem? Had nothing to do with the drummer not being there, the small and dead crowd or the rushed and robotic way we ran through songs and played with no fun. Or the food they comped their friends on our band tab. A no-no, especially on a dead bar night.

No, to them, the problem was that we have to race in between songs with virtually no pauses, and play hour long sets with no breaks, which morph into 1.5 hour sets with extra songs added in. So we rush through everything in a stressed, hurried manner and pay no attention to the audiences need to reset once in awhile too.

I subtly mention this, and that we should consider what happened that night. I gently hint that maybe we should try to play from the crowds POV, have fun and relax onstage and give the crowd a break once in awhile, and I get that 'here he goes again' look like I am trying to sell them a bag of mushrooms. I never refer to anything but 'we' and I gladly point out my own flaws and errors.

I am just venting at this point I think but man it gets frustrating.

The bottom line is what you said in the last post jmatt, "I want to be seen as a valuable member with something of value to add to the band."

Without that respect and equality, you are robbed of the best part of the band experience. It feels as though the others hoard it from you in that situation.

 

[BassGuyFL]

I go through the same thing with my bunch of knuckleheads. It isn't me trying to force my view/opinions on them but more along the lines of "Hey X band/artist does it like this and it works out great for them we should adapt the good parts of it to what we do."

Like it or not sometimes there's just a right way and a wrong way to do things and people don't get it. It also depends if there's a strong BK+L or not like in our case we specifically chose to not have a BL but all be of equal status which has backfired greatly in hindsight because no one can put their foot down and say "This is how it is end of story" on certain issues.

 

[jive1]

**TL/DR** How do you handle a band who never listens to your suggestions even when you (almost) always turn out to be right about things after the fact?

I freelanced more.

I had similar situations before, and in the end I just moved on to or started something else. Maybe it's presentation, or my personality, their stubborn-ness, or who knows. The hard thing for me is that I don't try to be a know it all, but I've had experience doing this. I've seen things that failed, and things that have worked, and I don't want to pay the tuition twice for a lesson that I already learned once. But some people only will hear it if they learn it the hard way, and those I avoid because I don't need the hard way twice. Others need to think they thought of it themselves, or had enough time to think they did it of their own volition. Those take a little more rapport, but can be dealt with.

In the end, I find that free-lancing is much easier. I can make suggestions, and if they follow any of them, then I'm more invested. If not, then I know where my place is in the band, and get into hired gun mode.

 

[skychief]

Its a general consesus among many (non-bassist)musicians that bass players dont require much musical knowledge to play a bass, ergo, bass players probably dont have much going on upstairs. They give you that deer-caught-in-the-headlights look. They easily dismiss any ideas/insights from you. It may be totally subconscious on their part.

I feel your pain.

 

[BKuettel]

My 2 cents

I feel like bass players do get the short end of the stick when it comes to being a productive member of the band, but this is apparently common knowledge to fellow tb'ers. However I feel like bass players often do end up taking the responsibilities of band management, like finding gigs, using their cars for equipment transport (quite often in my case) and socializing with the other bands.

I feel like bassists are the "well rounded" member of the band, both musically, socially, and responsibility wise. IMO, A lot of guitarists and drummers I know are just focused on playing their instruments and not focused on socializing with fans or other bands.

While we are on the topic, I keep remembering this Metalocalypse clip about being a bassist and how looked down upon they are. It makes me chuckle every time I see it.

 

[Kwesi]

I love my room/basement more and more everyday . Good luck with the band situation though. I have this habit of just leaving when the going gets tough...

 

[CS]

I don't think that it's a bassist thing or drummer etc, but that some people are knobheads and some people are not.

Also to quote Dilbert, stupid people drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Look for a band with nice people in it.

 

[scorpionldr]

Unfortunately, you're probably right

I've had similar trouble getting my material played as well. After a LOT of failed attempts at presenting stuff at rehearsal I eventually said screw it and wrote out 3 song ideas that I had previously tried to present to my band on Guitar Pro so that all they had to do was listen to it. They all were shocked that I could write complete songs that were actually pretty good. They ended up asking me why I hadn't tried to present anything to them before

this goes back to my previous thread about precomposing material and my ultimate point that bands are a waste of time.

....or maybe a waste of time if you are the bass player.

people seem to think that if you play a lead instrument you must be a great leader and writer of songs that people will appreciate. My suspicions are because you have the greatest range (guitar, six strings, medium level register that plays things out unforunately the clearest) that guitar players will mostly be made out to be the geniuses. Unfortunately nobody realizes you actually have to learn to play to be good .

And here I look upon the bassists...the maximizers of four strings in a low register, still get ignored.

and yea, i forgot to add, most people are way too lazy to deal with "cheesey" midi sound programming, be it in guitar pro or whatever you name.

 

[Steve]

I usually just say, "Here is what I am prepared to do. Here is what I am not prepared to do." There's really no arguing or cajoling about it.

"Oh, you booked a closing spot? Remember last week when I said I was not prepared to do that anymore? Have fun with that. Let me know how it goes."

They can either work it out or not but, I really pride myself on learning from my mistakes and if I'm really lucky, learning from the mistakes of others so I don't have to go down the same road.

Some call me difficult to work with, some call me the consummate professional. I really don't care but, I always work and I rarely have avoidable issues and that's good enough for me.