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Bergantino AE410 vs. Epifani 410UL(II)

KJung

KJung

Supporting Member
Apr 9, 2005
44,588
1,573
Wisconsin
#1
I thought I'd put up a separate thread to provide a forum for comparing these two top-of-the line lightweight 410's. Over the next few days, a few players will be coming over to check these two cabs out with a variety of heads (pictured below), and a variety of basses (different flavors of J basses... Sadowsky, Alleva, Celinder, etc.).

I put my initial comments in the general Bergantino Neo thread, but this thread will be specific to the 410's. They are both wonderfully built, with the Epi being a touch lighter (57 pounds versus 62) and the Berg being smaller (16" depth versus 18" depth). Both are a breeze to schlep, and the thin profile of the AE410 will allow it to fit in a backseat with no problem.. nice!

Tonewise they are quite different, and in general, the Bergantino, similar to the ceramic HS line, is tight, aggressive in the upper mids, very articulate, and quite 'low mid punchy'. The Epifani 410UL (II) (the current version) is a touch bigger in the lowest bass region, a little more polite in the lower mids, and much less aggressive in the upper mids... more pure treble response up there. The Epi seems to have a slight dip in the highest upper mid region prior to the tweeter kicking in (which works wonderfully for slap style playing) whereas the Bergantino seems very 'flat' above 750hz or so, which works wonderfully for that 'pick with roundwound' grind.

The Berg spray on covering is the best I've seen. I haven't decided if I am going to install the plastic corners that Jim was nice enough to send along with the cab. It looks so nice without them, but I'm a little worried about knocking a chunk of corner off when schlepping. It's less of a concern to me now that I've seem the cab, which seems built like a tank.

Jim and Nick take different approaches to achieving lighter weight. Nick uses a combination of custom Eminence Neo drivers and full thickness but very lightweight Italian poplar. Jim uses similar (I assume) customized Eminence Neo's, and uses thinner birch (the 'standard' full weight cabinet wood) to achieve a still stiff but lighter box. Both seem to work great... the boxes both feel very rigid and stiff.

We will post up more comments as the guys come through over the next week, and hopefully others who are getting the new AE410's will post up also.

Here's a picture of the cabs and amps (Markbass F1 and SD800, Epifani 502, Thunderfunk 550b, Mesa MPulse 600). This range of amps pretty much covers 'tubelike fatness, through warm SS punch, to relatively transparent and hi fi IMO.

neotest.gif
 
#2
PS... Vision (Jason) will be bringing his LMII over on Saturday (mine is in another location at the moment). I have high hopes for the LMII/AE410 combination. The F1 is a little too 'mid aggressive and tight' versus 'mid aggressive and tight' for my taste with the AE410 (it KILLs with the 410UL(II). I think the slightly warmer and wider voicing of the LMII is going to mesh beautifully with the AE410. We shall see!
 
#3
Here's a picture of the width and depth profile of each cab. The AE410 is quite a bit shallower, and the thinner wood makes the entire cab seem much smaller all the way around. This picture also gives a sense of the quality of the AE spray on coating... totally top-of-the line... like a high end pro audio touring PA box.


AEULtop.gif
 
#4
KJung said:
...They are both wonderfully built, with the Epi being a touch lighter (57 pounds versus 62) and the Berg being a smaller (16" depth versus 18" depth). Both are a breeze to schlep, and the thin profile of the AE410 will allow it to fit in a backseat with no problem.. nice!
Click to expand...

+1


KJung said:
Tonewise they are quite different, and in general, the Bergantino, similar to the ceramic HS line, is tight, aggressive in the upper mids, very articulate, and quite 'low mid punchy'. The Epifani 410UL (II) (the current version) is a touch bigger in the lowest bass region, a little more polite in the lower mids, and much less aggressive in the upper mids... more pure treble response up there. The Epi seems to have a slight dip in the highest upper mid region prior to the tweeter kicking in (which works wonderfully for slap style playing) whereas the Bergantino seems very 'flat' above 750hz or so, which works wonderfully for that 'pick with roundwound' grind.
Click to expand...

and +1
I found the AE410 to have a very nice slap sound as well. With the ul410(series I) being more of a hi-fi jazz slap sound, and the AE410 being more 'in your face' Flea(RHCP) type of slap tone.

I just picked up an AE410 and AE210, and I agree with your descriptions of the AE410/UL410 differences. I don't have the series (II) ul410, but I have played through one. I have the series (I) ul410 that's been my 'goto cab' for quite some time now, and it is a COMPLETELY different animal than the AE410.
 
#5
dominic54321 said:
+1

I just picked up an AE410 and AE210, and I agree with your descriptions of the AE410/UL410 differences. I don't have the series (II) ul410, but I have played through one. I have the series (I) ul410 that's been my 'goto cab' for quite some time now, and it is a COMPLETELY different animal than the AE410.
Click to expand...

+1... you have quite a stack of rigs there!!!! I think it's cool that many of us (you, Fuzzbass, etc.) that seem to have very different tone goals and preferences, still describe the tone of these cabs very similarly, even though one or the other might work better for us. That's the kind of feedback I always find very useful on this site!

I hope you post up on this thread when you do your 410 to 410 exact comparison in a bit.

K

Edit: +1 on your slap tone comparison also. Another way I hear the top end is a sort of Geddy Lee grind to the AE410 and a more 'Alain Caron or Marcus Miller' top end snap with some 2K dialed out with the 410UL.
 
#6
Definately, I did a brief description of my findings this weekend with the ae410/ae210 stack over in the neo thread here.... http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5295744&postcount=514
I'll have to compare the ae410/ul410(I) for a side by side comparison as soon as I get time. Funny story, my girlfriend was inquiring about the new bergies(she's actually interested in my bass lingo..lol) and she said, "You're not getting rid of the ul410 are you? That's the cab you ALWAYS seem to go back to."..lol It's true, I seem to always 'go back' to the ul410. I guess only time will tell now! ;)
th_ae410ae210b.jpg
 
#7
KJung said:
Tonewise they are quite different, and in general, the Bergantino, similar to the ceramic HS line, is tight, aggressive in the upper mids, very articulate, and quite 'low mid punchy'... whereas the Bergantino seems very 'flat' above 750hz or so, which works wonderfully for that 'pick with roundwound' grind.
Click to expand...

This is an interesting observation and very good to hear. I'm glad Jim was able to retain the "Bergantino Sound" while providing a much lighter cab. These are certainly intriguing.
 
#8
Groovin said:
This is an interesting observation and very good to hear. I'm glad Jim was able to retain the "Bergantino Sound" while providing a much lighter cab. These are certainly intriguing.
Click to expand...

The AE410 does have a lot in common to my ear with my HS210 (especially in the upper mids and treble... I assume the HS410 would be even more similar in tone with the bigger low end of the similar sized boxes). However, the voicing of both the HS and AE line is WAY different from the HT's.. in low, mids, and treble. The AE410 is as different in tone from the HT322 (for example) as it is from the 410UL. IMO!

I also assume the AE112 will sound quite different in the upper mids and treble from the HT112, given the different tweeter and I assume a different crossover.

That super deep, pure, pristine tone that you achieve with your IP310 and that I get at least close to with my 's' stack and a nice, transparent hi powered SS head is quite a different thing from the punch and aggressive growl of the AE line to my ear. However, it seems that there would be less of a reason for anyone to purchase the HS cabs now that these lighterweight models are out. I wonder if they will be continued. It seems that the subtle differences between the HS and AE are all in the positive direction of the AE line (more low end extension, similar SPL but much lighter weight, and very similar tone in the mids and treble). IMO there again!
 
#9
KJung said:
Tonewise they are quite different, and in general, the Bergantino, similar to the ceramic HS line, is tight, aggressive in the upper mids, very articulate, and quite 'low mid punchy'.
Click to expand...
Perhaps your HS210 si different, but I can't hear any upper-mid aggressiveness in my HS410.
That's why I was interested if any of TB'ers coming to visit you, as you announced, owns and could possibly bring the HS410 for comparison.
 
#10
nemo said:
Perhaps your HS210 si different, but I can't hear any upper-mid aggressiveness in my HS410.
That's why I was interested if any of TB'ers coming to visit you, as you announced, owns and could possibly bring the HS410 for comparison.
Click to expand...

Hopefully someone can do that comparison down the road. There isn't an HS410 around here at this point. I again can only comment on my HS210 as a direct comparison, which obviously doesn't have the low end of the HS410.. that might be overemphasizing the upper mids that I hear coming out of that cab. Also, looking at the specs, there seems to be more of a difference in the low end between the HS210 and HS410 than there is between the AE210 and AE410, with the HS210 rolling off significantly higher than the HS410.
 
#12
So far, the SD800 just KILLs to me with the AE410... the tight low end of the AE410 really firms up the deep low end boom of the SD800, and the semi-parametric upper mid control rolled back a bit at about 1K does a good job of removing the 'gank'. It's definitely the loudest and most 'chest thumping' of any combination of the amps/cabs, although it is very 'hi fi' and some would say a little harsh and sterile up top (that's more of the SD800 than the AE, since I hear the same thing with the 410UL). However, it just CRUSHES with the AE410 (it sounds a little too deep and wide with the 410UL to me... more boom than punch). Edit: This suggests a VERY nice match-up for those with Walter Woods Utra's who want a punchy pop/rock/funk tone out of that head. While the Walter Ultra and the SD800 don't sound the same, they have 'peaks and valleys' in similar places to my ear, and the low end girth of the AE410 is just in the right place!

Interestingly, I thought the MPulse600/AE410 was going to be a match made in heaven. At this point, I don't dig it. The big, tubey blossoming lows that come through in the 410UL (and the DB112's) with that head are tightened up too much with the AE410, and the upper mid voicing of the treble control and the entire top end of the MPulse600 sits in the wrong place to my ear with that cab. Surprising to me!

The TF and the AE is smoking though, and actually sounds like I thought the MPulse would... warm, punchy, fat, and 'pleasantly grindy'... a great, great classic rock type tone to my ears. Given what I hear with the big watts of the SD800, I would say for you classic rockers... just go out and get an AE410 and the new TF750a and be done with it!

The F1 and 502 sound MUCH better with the 410UL to my ear. The F1 is way too tight in the low end and too mid present for the AE410 (for my tone goals), and the 502 is obviously voiced to take the best advantage of the Epi cab.

I could live with any combination of the above, but some just seem to work better!
 
#15
KJung said:
So far, the SD800 just KILLs to me with the AE410... the tight low end of the AE410 really firms up the deep low end boom of the SD800, and the semi-parametric upper mid control rolled back a bit at about 1K does a good job of removing the 'gank'. It's definitely the loudest and most 'chest thumping' of any combination of the amps/cabs, although it is very 'hi fi' and some would say a little harsh and sterile up top (that's more of the SD800 than the AE, since I hear the same thing with the 410UL). However, it just CRUSHES with the AE410 (it sounds a little too deep and wide with the 410UL to me... more boom than punch).

The F1 and 502 sound MUCH better with the 410UL to my ear. The F1 is way too tight in the low end and too mid present for the AE410 (for my tone goals), and the 502 is obviously voiced to take the best advantage of the Epi cab.
Click to expand...

Nice! It sounds like the LMII will also be a better match for the 410UL, since I believe you place the F1 as kind of in between the SD800 and LMII in terms of tone...we'll find out soon though!
 
#17
vision said:
Nice! It sounds like the LMII will also be a better match for the 410UL, since I believe you place the F1 as kind of in between the SD800 and LMII in terms of tone...we'll find out soon though!
Click to expand...

I'm betting the LMII will be great... I've only heard one cab I didn't really care for it with ... NL210.
Also not that impressed with AG Jr. either, but it was ok.
 
#18
Big String said:
I'm betting the LMII will be great... I've only heard one cab I didn't really care for it with ... NL210.
Also not that impressed with AG Jr. either, but it was ok.
Click to expand...

True...once in a band rehearsal I even plugged my LMII into an 8ohm PA speaker (15" with horn) and it sounded GREAT!
 

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