Internalizing scales, chords, and arpeggios

Sorry I took so long to respond, I was on a bit of vacation in Montreal. cool city, great food. Unfortunately I left as they were setting up for the jazz festival.

I am glad that my comment got you thinking (that's what it is supposed to do). It is also probably the best question I've seen at talkbass. I am going to try and breakdown your comments and give you an answer. But let me preface everything here by one comment, there is no substitute for time. Internalizing comments is difficult and takes time.

TheChris said:

My question ties in a bit with Pacman 's sure fire scale practice method - how does learing scales help me play in a band?

Click to expand...

It is relatively easy to learn the bass lines that others have written/played. I have a number of students who can play all of Victor Wooten's material but have absolutely no idea how to play through a simple blues. The goal is to be able to create your own bass lines - either over a tune that you already do or some cover tunes.

Scales, unfortunately are not musical. There is very little about drilling scales that will help you play tunes. Playing scales will help in developing techniques. Playing scales will help develop your ear. Each of these is good, however they are not inherently musical.

I approach scales in a very different way, a much simpler way than learning all the modes and a way that is much more melodic, musical and musically applicable ... I'll get there in a few minutes

TheChris said:

I've been through two teachers in this area, and maybe it's me, but I don't quite grasp how drilling on scales is helping at all. Maybe in the figer dexterity dept, sure. Learning the fretboard dept, sure. But how do I get to the point where I know instantly the "appropriate chord scales and modes"?

Click to expand...

Since I do not know your knowledge base, please forgive me if some of the examples are too simple or if I have glossed over something that needs more of an explanation.

You don't have to nknow "instantly" - you just have to take a moment to look at the tune and figure out a Key Center or Tonal Center. Here is one example, you have a song that is G, C, D, G. We can fairly quickly tell that this is in the key of G. How? well In any major key, the chord based on the first, fourth and fifth scale degrees (I,IV,V) are major chords. The chords based on the second, third and sixth (II,III,VI) are minor chords. Finally the chord based on the seventh degree(VII) is a diminshed chord. In the above example we have 3 major chords. We can look for the I, IV, V relationship. It only works if the key is G. A I,IV, V in C would be C,F,G and in D would be D,G,A. We really don't have to worry about all the modes (trust me on this). Then two things that I think about when I approach this are:

1. All the notes in the key of G in any given position
2. The arpeggios of each of the chord

By doing this you can easily outline the harmony using chord tones of the indivdual chords and create lines and fills that work within the key.

NOW!!!! here is the crux of my technique. You play ALL the notes in the key or the arpeggio in any given position, not just from the root up. In the case of a 4 string, in 2nd position, all the notes in the key of G are:
F#,G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G,A,B,C
The G arpeggio is: G,B,D,G,B
The C Arpeggio is: G,C,E,G,C
The D Arpeggio is: F#,A,D,F#,A,C

In this way, three things happen:
1. You can learn every note in every key using only 5 simple "scale forms" (all the notes in a key in a single position). Each of the 5 scale forms start on a different note of the scale.
Scale Form 1 starts on the 7th degree of the scale
Scale Form 2 starts on the 2nd degree of the scale
Scale Form 3/4 starts on the 3rd degree of the scale
Scale Form 5 starts on the 5th degree of the scale
Scale Form 6 starts on the 6th degree of the scale

Note: some of these might have a little position shift.

2. Your bass lines and arpeggios go in both directions, not just root up which is one of those things that gets boring and predictable

3. in any position 3 or 4 of the modes are covered.

Now within each scale form there are 7 arpeggios (one for each chord). That represents 35 different arpeggios. By doing this you will have every triad in every key in any position on the bass. (35 more when you are ready to add 7th chords)

Learning 5 scale forms and 35 arpeggio forms is not that difficult. By first finding a key center you can create all these bass lines in one position on the neck (2 if you want to get jiggy with it). You will have the arpeggios and scales you need - no problem.

Let's look at one more example: The chord progression is Bm, G, D, A. If we look for the I,IV,V relationship, we can assertain that this is a VI, IV, I, V in the key of D. In 2nd position (where the money is) I'll use scale form 3/4 (F#, the lowest note in that psotion, on a 4 string, is the 3rd of the key of D, hence scale form 3/4). The notes are:
F#,G,A,B,C#,D,E,F#,G,A,B

The arpeggios are:
Bm: F#,B,D,F#,B
G: G,B,D,G,B
D: F#,A,D,F#,A
A: A,C#,E,A

You now have all the tools to create your own line.

TheChris said:

I know what it says in the books - that this mode works well over this chord (like mixolydian over dominant, right?), but how do you internalize all that? It would take me a few moments (or minutes, depending) to figure out the notes in a certain chord, and then to place a mode over it... gah... is it just practice and repetition? Never have been good at that... Like languages vs. math - math is easy, once you understand the concepts. Foreign languages are tough; memorizing is tedious and difficult (for me at least -- my wife is the opposite).

Click to expand...

You don't have to fiigure out the notes of the chord, just know the pattern. Your fingers will learn the pattern if you practice enough (muscle memory). Since I don't work in "modes", per se, I don't worry about it. I have my 5 scale forms!

TheChris said:

I've got a number of good books, like Serious Electric Bass, Fretboard Harmony, Levine's Jazz Theory, and yours, but I can't seem to figure out how to learn it in a way that will be helpful in a rock band context. I want to be able to jam and play covers, etc. and it seems that the more effective way to get to that level is to learn Zeppelin, The Who, etc. - it would certainly impress band mates and get me hired, wouldn't it? That, vs, "Hey guys, check out this mixolydian scale in G major - freaky, eh? Now, go ahead, play a D dominant!!"

Click to expand...

If you want to jam, then you must know how to create your own lines, not just learn the lines of others. Definetly learn what the masters did .. but then also KNOW how and why they did. I shared a cover of Bassics mag with John paul Jones - how cool is that!

TheChris said:

gah.. sorry, been bubbling up for a number of weeks, and your comment set it off. Your comment makes sense Mike, I just don't know how to get there.

Click to expand...

Be patient!

Mike

TheChris said:

Okay, it took awhile for everything to sink in. What a great post! Thanks Mike, I really appreciate you taking your time to help out.

So, let me see if I understand correctly. You are saying that a good way to use scales and chords is to learn 5 scale forms. (Shouldn't there be 6? What about the pattern starting at the root of the scale? And what about the form starting on the 4th degree, or is that form 3/4 and you forgot to write "4th degree"?) And then within each of the scale patterns you will have 7 chord patterns.

Click to expand...

Only 5. Due to the 1/2 step between the 7th and 8th scale degree and the 3rd and 4th scale degree, you only need one scale form for each.

TheChris said:

So, for example, the C Major scale starting at third position would be:
E string: G A B
A string: C D E
D string: F G A
G string: B C D

Click to expand...

Not Quite - here is what it should be:

E string: G A
A string: B C D
D string: E F G
G string: A B C

I am still using 1 finger per fret. I would start SF 5 with my 2nd finger. In the key of C it would be 2nd position

TheChris said:

This would be scale form 5 because we start from the 5th of C major, G.

Click to expand...

Absolutely!

TheChris said:

The I, IV and V chord patterns would be:
I: G C E G C
IV: A C F A C
V: G B D G B D

Click to expand...

Close -
I: G C E G C
IV: A C F A C
V: G B D G B

Only because I am not doing the stretch to the 7th fret

TheChris said:

Now for the tough question: How would you set up a practice routine to learn these scale forms and chord patterns?

Maybe on one day go up the whole fingerboard playing C Major through each of the 5 (6?) scale forms, and for each form playing through each of the 7 chords, while naming the notes and/or their harmonic numbering?

Click to expand...

This is one good wawy - although I am not convinced that you need to memorize all the note names. Just as an aside. I recently started playing 5 string (E,A,D,G,C) - I really don't know the names of the notes of the C string. I do however know the fingering patterns and what the intervals will sound like.

Here is a great way to practice these forms. Take a song or chord progression. Create a few bass lines for that song using only 1 scale form in a given position. Now do the same song or chord progression in another position using a different scale form. Notice how you approach the bass lines in each position/scale form, notice how uniquely different they sound. Now combine the 2 scale forms. Try a third, etc

TheChris said:

And one more question: when you see a chord symbol, what is the first thing that pops into your mind? What process do you go through to get to the point where you've found the pattern and you're ready to play that chord?

I just wonder, because if there are 35 chord patterns, there's alot to remember. The best I can think of now is that you've got to know every note in a chord to begin with, because you'll have to pick that chord's lowest note in your current scale form in order to start the chord pattern (such as A in the IV F chord above).

Doesn't this mean you'd have to know exactly what notes are in every chord, off the top of your head? I guess I'm just trying to find out what to concentrate studying on.

Lots of hard studying ahead, but now at least I'm a bit closer to figuring out what I should be spending my time on. Thanks Mike!

Click to expand...

The ONLY thing that I can get form a chord symbol is the arpeggio - the notes of the chord- nothing more. But it is a good start. Then I look at the rest of the tune to try and find a key. Once I do that I know have the notes of the chord and the scale form(s) that I need to creat a bass line. Add some cool chromatic things and you're off.

Although I know the notes of a chord off the top of my head, I never think about it when I am playing. I rely on the patterns, intervals, arpeggios. having to put a name to something before you play it takes too much time. Study the names of the notes in the arpeggios, etc as an academic exercise. Translate it to the bass, but don't feel the need to know it cold in order to play it.

Mike

There are almost two threads going on here:

TheChris said:

I really want to learn how to be a good musician, not just a bass parrot.

Click to expand...

TheChris said:

How would you set up a practice routine to learn these scale forms and chord patterns?

Click to expand...

While there is some great information in this thread on learning the scales and arpeggios from a fingering standpoint, and on what the scales and arpeggios look like on a bass fretboard, I want more information on practicing in a manner that gets this stuff into my head and fingers in a manner that allows me to actualy play original music.

Right now I can play cover songs note for note, I can play the five close fingering scale patterns, I can play the seven three notes per string spread fingering scale patterns, I can play any arpeggio in place, and I am working on playing the arpeggios accross every string in positions. But everything I do is just replaying something I learned. If I continue to practice in the same manner I have been, one year from now I will just simply know more songs and scales, but not be able to play in an originals band.

Mike Dimin said:

It is relatively easy to learn the bass lines that others have written/played. I have a number of students who can play all of Victor Wooten's material but have absolutely no idea how to play through a simple blues. The goal is to be able to create your own bass lines - either over a tune that you already do or some cover tunes.

Click to expand...

Ok, I may not be as good as those students, but at my level I have exactly the same problem.

Mike, I realize that in some of your posts there was some great practice advice, like this:

Mike Dimin said:

Here is a great way to practice these forms. Take a song or chord progression. Create a few bass lines for that song using only 1 scale form in a given position. Now do the same song or chord progression in another position using a different scale form. Notice how you approach the bass lines in each position/scale form, notice how uniquely different they sound. Now combine the 2 scale forms. Try a third, etc.

Click to expand...

...but could you please weed out the "learning scale and arpeggio fingering" stuff and just give us some advice on practicing in a manner that helps is move from being a parrot to being a musician?

I realize that you may need to include scale and arpeggio fingering advice, and staying in one position advice, but pretend we know scales and arpeggios and are not "learning fingerings" and give us some practice advice on how to use this stuff.

There is: 1) learning what the scales and arpeggos look like on the fretboard, 2) learning the fingering of the different scales and arpeggios, 3) learning to shift between different scale and arpeggio positions while in the same scale/arp/chord, 4) learning how to shift between different scales and arpeggios while in the same five fret position on the fretboard, 5) making stuff up, and 6) using the knowledge of scales and arpeggios and making stuff up to create tasteful original music to a known chord progression.

But, it seems like most of the discussions here on talkbass are about 1 and 2. Maybe most of the players here simply "get it". Maybe you can just show them a few things about scales and they are off and running. I did not "get it". I continued to learn and practice scale fingerings as exercises and now my actual playing is not as good as my scale and music theory knowledge would lead you to believe I should be. Please help me correct this.

Thanks,

Tim99.

Tim99

Really great post. I'm on the way out now, but over the next few days I'll try to post some informative stuff. The drawback to this kind of an exchange is that I cannot hear you play, work with you and develop certain ideas to make creative bass lines.

Mike

Tim99, one way to achieve what you're trying to achieve is to play with more bands doing original music. Also seek out opportunities to play in styles that you are not at all familiar with. Free improv situations are great because they force you to listen to what's going on so that what you contribute works with everything else. Jam sessions are great too, because as a bass player you usually have to come up with something by yourself or based on something a drummer or another musician comes up with. The key to moving to the next level is playing in as many situations as you can and in as many styles as you can, do that for a year and you'll see a difference.

Due to the fact that I am under some incredible deadlines in the next few days before I head off for some family vacation. I will try to give a few things at a time. I hope that it is OK with you.

I hear what you are saying. It boils down to "how can my practice me both technically and musically rewarding." Here are some suggstions (with more to follow) in no specific order. Please let me know if you need me to elaborate

1. learn every aspect of a song. Learn the bass line, the harmony (especially in jazz tunes that have such great voice leading) and most importantly learn the melody. be able to play every part. When learning the harmony, especially in a tune with 7th chords, follow the lines that the 3rd and 7th of each chord make, you'll be surprised how beautiful it is.

2. Think of a bass line as a series of landmarks (usually on the chord change) Create bass lines that connect the landmarks, draw a "map" so to speak. Start out with the landmarks being the root of each chord, then start using different chord tones as the landmark. Find lines that move contrary to the harmony (think Stairway to Heaven). Then play them up an octave as a counter melody. Use the Scale Form as your foundation

3. Get away from "riff" based lines. They only create more of a myopia in your playing

4. we tend to create lines that move from the root up. Try a different approach. For example take a 2 chord funky type vamp A-7 to D7 (a II-V in the key of G). The A-7 is A,C,E,G while the D7 is D, F#,A,C. Notice that each of these chords share 2 notes and the other two are within a step of each other. How about creating a line that uses the strength of the common tones and the uniqness of the different ones. Over the A-7 play G A C E and over the D7 play F# A C D. Now all you are doing is playing the chord tones, but when you play them with subtle differences rather than as a "riff" you get a smooth, funky little line.

5. This one I love. Lets take a groove: Bb7 to Eb7. These are the changes to the first part of Mercy, Mercy Mercy. Our tendency (on a 4 string) would be to play a riff over Bb mixolydian and raise the riff a perfect 4th to Eb mix. Let's throw a bit of a curve. I will go through this step by step so as not to confuse:

1. The Bb7 is the 5th of the key of Eb
2. The Eb7 is the 5th of the key of Ab

note: dominant 7th chords are usually the chord based on the 5th degree of a major scale.

3. So we are actually playing 1 measure of Eb to 1 measure of Ab

4. We will try this exercise playing in the "money" postion (first 5 frets)

5. Over the Bb7 (key of Eb) we will use Scale Form 3/4 beginning on the 3rd of the Eb scale: G. The notes would be:
G Ab Bb C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

6. Over the Eb7 (key of Ab) we will use Scale Form 1 beginning on the 7th of the Ab scale: G. The notes would be:
G Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C

7. From these two forms, we find only one note difference. In the key of Eb there is a D natural while in the key of Ab there is a Db.

8. As we did in the A-7 to D7 example, try creating a bass line that utilizes the strength of the common tones and accentuates the uniqueness of the different ones.

More later ....

hope this helps,
Mike

Mike Dimin said:

You can learn every note in every key using only 5 simple "scale forms" (all the notes in a key in a single position). Each of the 5 scale forms start on a different note of the scale.
Scale Form 1 starts on the 7th degree of the scale
Scale Form 2 starts on the 2nd degree of the scale
Scale Form 3/4 starts on the 3rd degree of the scale
Scale Form 5 starts on the 5th degree of the scale
Scale Form 6 starts on the 6th degree of the scale

Click to expand...

The following are my charts of Mike's description above. I am calling the first chart Form 7/1 instead of Form 1. These scales start on the lowest sounding largest diameter string, so that is where the form numbers come from. Note that the numbers in the charts are the scale degrees. Note that I show these charts for 6 string bass. You can copy these into Word, use "Courier New" font and "Web Layout" view and delete strings or modify as needed. Please PM me with corrections or changes and I will edit this post.

Major, Form 7/1

|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|
|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|
|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|
|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|
|-----|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|


Major, Form 2

|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|
|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|-----|
|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|
|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|
|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|
|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|


Major, Form 3/4

|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|
|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|
|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|
|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|
|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|


Major, Form 5

|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|
|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|
|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|
|-----|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|
|-----|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|


Major, Form 6

|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|-----|
|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|
|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|
|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|
|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|
|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|

Note that these scale forms are in fretboard order. You could glue them together end to end to make a continuous fretboard diagram.

Tim99.

Mike Dimin said:

The two things that I think about when I approach this are: 1. All the notes in the key...in any given position, [and] 2. The arpeggios of each of the chords.

Click to expand...

Below is the structure of the Major scale and the chords from each degree of that scale. Note that the first line is the degrees of the scale, and the next lines are the notes of the chords. I am showing 7th chords here. Sorry about the periods, I need them to make it line up.

......Major..|.1|..|.2|..|.3|.4|..|.5|..|.6|..|.7|.1|..|.2|..|.3|.4|..|.5|..|.6|..|.7|.1|
.I....Maj7...|.1|..|..|..|.3|..|..|.5|..|..|..|.7|.1|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|
.ii...min7...|..|..|.1|..|..|b3|..|..|..|.5|..|..|b7|..|.1|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|
.iii..min7...|..|..|..|..|.1|..|..|b3|..|..|..|.5|..|..|b7|..|.1|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|
.IV...Maj7...|..|..|..|..|..|.1|..|..|..|.3|..|..|.5|..|..|..|.7|.1|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|
.V7...Dom7...|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|.1|..|..|..|.3|..|..|.5|..|..|b7|..|.1|..|..|..|..|..|
.vi...min7...|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|.1|..|..|b3|..|..|..|.5|..|..|b7|..|.1|..|..|..|
.vii..m7b5...|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|..|.1|..|..|b3|..|..|b5|..|..|..|b7|..|.1|..|


Tim99.

Mike Dimin said:

Now within each scale form there are 7 arpeggios (one for each chord). That represents 35 different arpeggios. By doing this you will have every triad in every key in any position on the bass. (35 more when you are ready to add 7th chords).

Click to expand...

I realize that 7 times 5 is 35, but...there are only five Maj7 actual forms so each one is used two times to provide the ten forms, only five min7 actual forms so each one is used three times to provide the fifteen forms, and then five for the Dominant 7s, and finally five for the half diminished 7s. That makes for only 20 actual separate arpeggio form fingerings.

Let me say this another way...each of the five forms have two Major arpeggios and three minor arpeggios. That makes ten Major arpeggios, but only five are unique, and fifteen minor arpeggios, but only five are unique.

Tim99.

Mike Dimin said:

More later...

Click to expand...

I would like to know more about how you think about the chords/arpeggios. Are you aware of the key you are in at all times and when you see a chord symbol, you translate it into a number? When you practice your arpeggios for a particular scale form, do you say...Form 7/1, sixth degree, minor seventh, the root notes are there and there?

I can imagine finding the proper position on the neck and scale form by knowing where the 1 scale degrees are in each form, and using them as an anchor. I could do that now. It would take more study to be able to think: key of C, four string guitar, lowest fretted note is F, F is the fourth of C, use Form 4, oops there is no Form 4, ok Form 5 from the G on the fourth string.

So, now I come accross a Dm7. I play from my arpeggio for Form 5, 2nd degree arpeggio, ii minor 7, the D is the 1 of that chord, and it is there and there.

Please explain more about how you get this into your head during practice, and then out of your head while playing. You may not think this way now. It may be simple for you to work with positions, but how would you tell a student to begin to learn and use this?

I realize that some may think that this was already covered, by the below question and answer, but I am still not there. In my scale form I have 3 minor arpeggios, but only one that is for the minor chord in the measure that I am now in. I would think that I would pick my arpeggio by looking for a root anchor, and that I should know where the 1, 3, 5, 7 is, so I can play a 1, a 3, a 5, or a 7 when I want to. I would like additional information on this.

TheChris said:

I just wonder, because if there are 35 chord patterns, there's alot to remember. The best I can think of now is that you've got to know every note in a chord to begin with, because you'll have to pick that chord's lowest note in your current scale form in order to start the chord pattern (such as A in the IV F chord above).

Doesn't this mean you'd have to know exactly what notes are in every chord, off the top of your head? I guess I'm just trying to find out what to concentrate studying on.

Click to expand...

Mike Dimin said:

The ONLY thing that I can get form a chord symbol is the arpeggio - the notes of the chord- nothing more. But it is a good start. Then I look at the rest of the tune to try and find a key. Once I do that I know have the notes of the chord and the scale form(s) that I need to creat a bass line. Add some cool chromatic things and you're off.

Although I know the notes of a chord off the top of my head, I never think about it when I am playing. I rely on the patterns, intervals, arpeggios. having to put a name to something before you play it takes too much time. Study the names of the notes in the arpeggios, etc as an academic exercise. Translate it to the bass, but don't feel the need to know it cold in order to play it.

Click to expand...

Tim99.

Mike Dimin said:

You don't have to nknow "instantly" - you just have to take a moment to look at the tune and figure out a Key Center or Tonal Center...NOW!!!! here is the crux of my technique. You play ALL the notes in the key or the arpeggio in any given position, not just from the root up. In the case of a 4 string, in 2nd position, all the notes in the key of G are: F#,G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G,A,B,C The G arpeggio is: G,B,D,G,B The C Arpeggio is: G,C,E,G,C The D Arpeggio is: F#,A,D,F#,A,C...You don't have to fiigure out the notes of the chord, just know the pattern. Your fingers will learn the pattern if you practice enough...

Click to expand...

Mike, it is a little confusing that you first explain your method using the notes for the scale and the arpeggios in the example key of G, and then later you say "You don't have to figure out the notes of the chord." I think that in the example key of G explaination, you are telling us the notes only to show us the "fretboard roadmap" that you are using. The...location of the notes you are using. And to show that the arpeggios you are using do not start with the 1. I am thinking that when you say we don't have to know the names of the notes, that means that when you play, you are playing based on a position, and/or an anchor.

So...if I am playing, and I am playing on a 4 string electric bass, and I am near the 5th fret position, and I come accross a Dm7-G7-CM7 chord progression, I see that it is a ii-IV-V in the key of C, and at my 5th fret position on a 4 string bass, A is my lowest note on the 4th string, and that A is the 6th degree of the C Major scale, so I use Form 6 of the Major scale or Ionian mode. I also note that there is a C at the 4th string 8th fret, and 1st string 5th fret. Now I can play notes from the C scale, not knowing all the names of the notes in the C scale, because I am locked into that pattern. So, for the Dm7, I know that it is the ii of the key of C, so I use my iim7 arpeggio for Form 6, noting that there is a D on the 3rd string 5th fret, and a D on the 1st string 7th fret. But I do not have to know the other notes of the Dm7 chord or arpeggio, but I do remember where the 1, the b3, the 5, and the b7 are of this arpeggio. For the G7, I know that it is the V of the key of C, so I use my VDom7 arpeggio for Form 6, noting that there is a G on the 2rd string 5th fret. But I do not have to know the other notes of the GDom7 chord or arpeggio, but I do remember where the 1, the 3, the 5, and the b7 are of this arpeggio. Last, for the CM7, I know that it is the I of the key of C, so I use my IM7 arpeggio for Form 6, noting that there is a C on the 4rd string 8th fret, and a C on the 1st string 5th fret. But I do not have to know the other notes of the CM7 chord or arpeggio, but I do remember where the 1, the 3, the 5, and the 7 are of this arpeggio.

Mike, is that the type of thinking you use? If so, this is similar to playing chords on a guitar, where you know where the ROOT of the chord inversion you are using is, and maybe the name of the TOP note, to locate the chord, but then you do not think of the NAMES of the notes, you think of the NUMBERS of the chord tones. So then when you are going to play your next chord, you are thinking what inversion to use to move down or up the minimum amount.

Please correct my explaination if this type of thinking is not what you experience.

Tim99.

The following posts continue my charts of Mike's description of the five majoar scale forms.

I call the fingering for these scale forms "close" fingering, because each finger covers one fret accross a four fret position. There is another set of fingerings that is three notes per every string, that I call "spread" fingering, because there are fingerings where the fingers have to stretch to play the three notes that cover five frets. There are seven "spread" fingering forms. Those forms can be charted for the scales and arpeggios similar to my charts here.

Note that the numbers in the charts are the scale degrees. I have not noted the fingerings. Note that I show these charts for 6 string bass. You can copy these into Word, use "Courier New" font (this is a fixed width font) and "Web Layout" view and delete strings or modify as needed. To use these for a 5 string bass, you do not play the top string, and to use these for a 4 string bass, you do not play the top two strings.

I have used the talkbass forum "Fixedsys" font to chart these here. Sorry about the periods, I need them to make the charts line up because the forum software takes out extra spaces.

Please someone check my work and PM me to let me know if these charts are correct or if I need to make changes.

Looks like I am going to be busy this summer...

Tim99.