Roland Sues Behringer

Show, Behringer announced the launch of a line of guitar effects pedals which replicate the distinctive design features of the Boss pedals with such painstaking detail that the Behringer pedals are nearly indistinguishable from the Boss pedals. Roland contends that this is no coincidence, and that the overall look and feel of the Behringer pedals is intentionally designed to confuse consumers as to the origin, sponsorship, or affiliation of the Behringer Pedals, and to capitalize and profit from Roland's success, its reputation, and the goodwill that it has developed over the years.

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Good lawyers. These are the main points of any Copyright branding dispute. For example- a company can not make a cola soda, put it in a red can, put a white dash running veriticaly and call it Koke a Kola. Actually... just putting it in a red/white can would be enough to get them in trouble. The idea is that Roland has spend money Designing, marketing, and Branding their pedals. Even if one potential customer mistakes a Behringer pedal for a Roland then Roland has a case because that is money that should be going to Roland.

The complaint also alleges that in an effort to gain industry acceptance of the cloned pedals, Behringer falsely assured industry retailers that the Behringer line of pedals was approved and endorsed by Roland.

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If this is true (and there is a documented letter) then It will be a pretty easy win for Roland. I can't really believe that this would happen. Designing a pedal to look just like a competators is pretty dumb- but claiming that they endorsed it is grade A mega stupid.

Behringer introduced the prototypes for a new line of stomp boxes. We informed our dealers that we intend to offer the line of stomp boxes at prices much lower than those available in the market, and that shipping of the products will commence in the second quarter. We believe that our announcement might have elicited Roland's attention.

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All pedals have to be of some what similar construction... For example: They all have to be on the ground, they all have to have a button or pedal switch to turn on the effect, and they all have to have knobs to make it change effects. But the kicker for this case will be the question of "How close does Behringer's pedal look to Rolands?" If Roland's pedal is green, has yellow stripes, and has red buttons and a huge toggle switch- and Behringer's can be described as the same way; Behringer is gonna be paying some money out.

Anyone have any pics of the two pedals so we can compare?

I find this rather interesting, especially with all the recent TB talk of this. If Roland wins, who's to say who else will step in line next? It could get pretty ugly, I think. But, it could also remain as-is. Gotta keep an eye on this one..

Ray

SMASH said:

http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/01/new-behringer-pedals-visual-aid.html

http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/01/behringers-dirt-cheap-stompboxes-look.html

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Yeah. I think Roland is going to win this one... Will this open the doors for Fender to sue over body style? I don't think so- since basses have to be designed a way to be practical. It would be like Ford sueing GM because his car has 4 wheels. Doesn't Fender already have a thing for their headstock? I think they tried to do it for their body style but failed.

Are these Behringer stomp boxes in stores now? I think it is time to pick me up some nice pedals really cheap.

SMASH said:

Nitpickers will argue until they're blue, but (IMO) no reasonable person can assert that a Sadowsky, Lull, et. al. aren't as much J and P derived as the Behringer products are "inspired by" Ashdown, QSC, Mackie, and now Roland/Boss.

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You are right SMASH. We'll just have to watch and hope that this doesn't lead to Fender doesn't sue small shops for the body shape.

Doesn't Sadosky get his bodys from Builders that have a Fender contrat? Like Mighty Mite?

perhaps the crucial thing will be the colors used... the original pictures of Behringer's stomp boxes looked to be the exact same colors as the Boss pedals, which I thought was an unacceptably cynical way to do business...

I've just had a look at the Behringer site and the pedal illustrations now look to be different colors than the Boss ones, so maybe they've recived legal advice that they wouldn't get away with it...

if Behringer really can produce a good product for a good price, they shouldn't have to rely on giving their pedals a 'Boss pedal aroma' in order to sell...

Not only has the color of the pedals on the Behringer web site changed, so has the "design" of the pedals. But still, what we are seeing on the Behringer website are still artists renderings and not actual product.

My 2 cents says that this will never go to court.

SMASH said:

http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/01/new-behringer-pedals-visual-aid.html

http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/01/behringers-dirt-cheap-stompboxes-look.html

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It looks like some horrible joke almost. I can't believe they thought they get away with it.

Yeah I just noticed they changed their pedal designs too. Regardless of whether or not they are rip-offs, I would buy a cheaper Behringer pedal if it was as good as a more expensive Boss pedal.

I respect the choices of some to not buy Behringer products, but like others have mentioned, this is no different than someone making a "Jazz" bass, or someone making a cabinet with 4 10s and a tweeter. The business world thrives on people seeing a product and either:

A. Finding a way to improve on that product.

or

B. Finding a way to replicate that product and sell the replicas for a lower price than the original.

Everyone steals ideas from everyone. There's no rule that says amps have to have knobs on the front instead of the side or the top. It works, so every amp company has borrowed that configuration. Car companies have adopted many of the same features to compete, such as leather seats, power windows, CD players, etc. They do whatever they can to replicate what they perceive to be their competitors' biggest advantages.

Sure, Behringer could be called names and everything, but the bottom line is, if (and this is a big if) their products are as good as their competitors', and they're cheaper, why would anyone not buy them? If I can get a Behringer rack tuner comparable to a Korg for $60 or $70, I'll surely do that before I'll pay several times that much for the "real deal" product.

I'd love to live in a world where every businessman came up with unique ideas, but if that was the case, every one of those unique ideas would be costing consumers a lot more than they are now. Because when one company has a "unique" product, said company has a monopoly and can charge whatever it wants. With clone products come lower prices and with lower prices come satisfied consumers. It's good business sense to copy another's product. You get to skip the expensive R&D process.

As long as Behringer isn't forcing anyone to buy their products over the Boss pedals (or whatever other products they're competing with), I see no harm. And as long as Behringer is not, in fact, misleading people to believe that its products are somehow endorsed or otherwise affiliated with Roland's (or anyone else's) products, there is no fraud. No force, no fraud, no problem.

Also, be real. The people who care to buy the real thing will still buy the real thing. And the people who would be somehow "confused" by the similar look of a Behringer product are probably not smart enough to go and buy the real deal anyway. These are the kids who are using Rogue pedals. And then, you have the people who will buy Boss just because of the name, regardless of whether it's the best out there or whether there's a cheaper alternative. People still buy Fenders because "they're the best basses in the world" without even considering that there are luthiers out there making instruments that put Fenders to shame. There are people who would rather have an MIM Fender than a Sadowsky because they've heard of Fender. All I'm trying to say is that the people likely to be "duped" by the Behringer products are probably not worth saving from the whole thing anyways.

Just my civil 2 cents.
Jake

MichaelScott said:

For example- a company can not make a cola soda, put it in a red can, put a white dash running veriticaly and call it Koke a Kola. Actually... just putting it in a red/white can would be enough to get them in trouble.

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Hm? I know a lot of non-Coca-colas with red/white cans, so...

It'd be pretty fearsome if Fender started killing everybody. Wonder what shapes Sadowsky basses would be, eh?

speaking of soft drinks, how about all the supermarket own-brand rip-offs of Red Bull?
eg. Blue Bolt, Red Rooster.....

It scares me that people find that kind of theft acceptable.

If it's theft, then it's illegal and I don't find it "acceptable." But in all seriousness, I wasn't aware that you could copyright the color scheme of a pedal or the layout of knobs. Forgive me for my mistake, if those are in fact copyrightable.

I'm not advocating theft. I'm just saying that the borrowing of ideas is the foundation of enterprise. Behringer is taking heat because they're borrowing on a much grander scale than the average company making a jazz knock-off.

Like I said in my other post, if we're gonna come down on Behringer, we need to come down on all the manufacturers who make a cab with 4 10s and a tweeter, because they're all stealing from the original. With the exception of a name badge, most of them look extremely similar. It's horrible that the thieves out there couldn't make their own cab designs like Jorg Schroeder or the guys at Accugroove did.

And all the people who've made tweed guitar amps over the years to emulate (and gain financially from) the success of the early Fender tweed amps should be put on trial as well.

We should also bust every manufacturer of electric bass strings for ripping off the original designs for wrapping wire around a core and putting a ball end on the thing.

Please note: I'm not trying to be sarcastic or cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble. I'm just taking the side of the accused and trying to show the fundamental hypocrisy involved in bashing Behringer. If you find my posts to be "uncivil" then delete them. But if you find them hard to stomach simply because you disagree, I see no reason for their removal.

Jake

Puarija said:

If it's theft, then it's illegal and I don't find it "acceptable." But in all seriousness, I wasn't aware that you could copyright the color scheme of a pedal or the layout of knobs. Forgive me for my mistake, if those are in fact copyrightable.

I'm not advocating theft. I'm just saying that the borrowing of ideas is the foundation of enterprise. Behringer is taking heat because they're borrowing on a much grander scale than the average company making a jazz knock-off.

Like I said in my other post, if we're gonna come down on Behringer, we need to come down on all the manufacturers who make a cab with 4 10s and a tweeter, because they're all stealing from the original. With the exception of a name badge, most of them look extremely similar. It's horrible that the thieves out there couldn't make their own cab designs like Jorg Schroeder or the guys at Accugroove did.

And all the people who've made tweed guitar amps over the years to emulate (and gain financially from) the success of the early Fender tweed amps should be put on trial as well.

We should also bust every manufacturer of electric bass strings for ripping off the original designs for wrapping wire around a core and putting a ball end on the thing.

Please note: I'm not trying to be sarcastic or cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble. I'm just taking the side of the accused and trying to show the fundamental hypocrisy involved in bashing Behringer. If you find my posts to be "uncivil" then delete them. But if you find them hard to stomach simply because you disagree, I see no reason for their removal.

Jake

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It's one thing to simply copy and sell off. No harm, no foul. Especially if we benefit from it, and can get it cheaper.

Now, when a company copies pedals down to the circuit board used, that's stealing. Just like taking software. You take 10 lines from Microsoft's kernal, watch out.

I love how you keep bringing up the 4x10 etc. EVERY cab company does their R&D on their cabs!! They put effort into making theirs different. How can you prove this? Plug one bass and one amp into one makers 4x10, and then into a diff 4x10. Tell me their excatly alike. Please.

Also, it's still really yet to be seen, but Behringer absolutly HAD to cut corner somewhere to get us these "savings". One is obviously R&D, since I don't think they've ever done a bit on their own. Secondly, they may or may not use cheaper components.

I suggest your read this link:
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Ray

Ray Salamon said:

I suggest your read this link:
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And also if you have any more comments to take it out of this thread.

Ray

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And after you have read the above link, you can read this one..

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I still don't think the Roland/Behrigner suit is going to make it to court. But if it does, what will the Roland people say when Behringer brings out a set of stompboxes that look nothing like the Boss pedals?

To all those who are happy to see designs stolen/copied - I sincerely hope one day you invent or design something from scratch, spend money researching, prototyping, and testing it, only to have someone with a photocopier pull the rug out from under you! If this becomes standard business practice, why would you bother inventing anything?

Behringer will sort itself out. All the music retailers I speak to have stopped stocking it because the amount or customer returns, while acceptable at first, are way too large now to make it viable. What's the old saying - "You pay peanuts, you'll get monkeys!".

Excellent thread, SMASH - good to see a Behringer thread that hasn't devolved. The pics comparing the Behringers to the E-H and Boss pedals are jaw-dropping.

I own one piece of Behringer equipment (some autocom BS expander/limiter rack unit that really does very little, IMHO) and, upon learning of the reverse-engineering practices on this board, I vowed not to buy any more.

It will be interesting to see if Ashdown eventualy follows suit (if they can, given their financial position). You had to know that Behringer would get bitten if they copied a large enough manufacturer/distributor.