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The 502, TF, LM, SD 800, WW, 800WT Bedroom Shootout

burk48237

burk48237

Supporting Member
Nov 22, 2004
9,850
3,568
68
Oak Park, MI
#1
Well KJung, Mikebass, Shelly, Vision, Myself and a newbie (Carla) got together to do a shootout with some gear in my extra bedroom ( a place with acoustics rivaling the Bowlus basement.

The Heads:
Thunderfunk 550B. LM II, Markbass SD 800, Epiphani UL 502, Walter Woods 1200 watt, and an Eden 800 WT.

The Cabs: LDS 210 UL and LDS 212 UL with B & C's
LDS 210 UL and 115 UL with Eminence Deltas
Eden 210 XST

The Basses: Two MTD 535's, one Wenge/ Tulipwood, not sure on the other, Valenti MM/J (mikebass) Sadowsky RV5 Metro and a UV 70 MV5, HMR custom Jazz, and a Warwick Corvette 5

first a few shots:
#1 Ken getting tweaked
GTG1-1.jpg

#2 Jayson (Vision) and Shelly with a pair of MTD's
GTG2.jpg

#3 Jayson giving them the thorough test
GTG3.jpg

#4 Shelly ringing them out with the addition of Mikes 800 WT and 210 XST
GTG4.jpg

#5 The gang gathered
GTG5.jpg
 
#3
ibz said:
Nice pics, but any thoughts from conducting the shootout?
Click to expand...


Hey... we just finished about 20 minutes ago:p

Fun hang. I'll let some of the other guys post, since I'm so darn long winded all the time. I'll just say that I really dug Michele's new cabs A LOT... they were each (115 and 210) just a touch bigger than the Bag End SD15's, and sounded just beautiful. Super lightweight, and wonderful spray on covering.

I also dug the Epi502 quite a bit... I can see now why it's so hard for people to describe it... hi fi, but not sterile at all, warm but very open and wide at the same time... VERY nice and quite unique.... closer to the SD800 than the LMII to my ear. As you can see from the first picture, I was very excited about finally being able to check it out!

I'll jump back in when everyone else has had a chance to get their thoughts together. There wasn't one head or combination I wouldn't have been happy gigging with for the rest of my days:D
 
#4
The Review of the Heads:

First, There was not a bad sound in the bunch, and you would be happy gigging with any of these rigs. Some sounded better with certain cabs, some stood out with certain basses.

The Walter Woods: The priciest of the bunch and with the most power. 1200 watts, and probably the first true UL light head. When you hear the LM and the SD 800 the WW seems reel expensive, but when you consider how long it's been out that is a testimony to the innovation packed in that little chassis. It really seemed to speak with Shellys cabs (smaller and a little tighter sounding ) and it seemed to love Jays MTD. One of the best combos of the night. It's still hard to get past the class D clankiness inherent in the design but with the right bass and cabs it really did show off it's headroom.

The Eden WT 800: I don't know if anyone looking at the other amps would consider the Eden but it's actually priced very close to everything but the LM. It was the warmest head of the bunch and sounded great thru the XST ( a much smoother cab then the old XLTs) and My bigger LDS cabs. It likes to move air. It is obvious why Eden is still one of the standards in pro bass tones. It sounded very good with a little less high end sizzle then the remaining heads.

The Thunderfunk 550B: Very close to the Eden standard in sound. A kind of modern take on vintage. The biggest difference was the "switch" made it a little more versatile then the Eden. It didn't have as much sizzle as the SD 800 but the low mid punch is the real deal. My personal favorite (I'm biased), but I do believe it was the most versatile of the bunch. It loved the J style basses, but you had to tweak it more with the MTD's.

The Epi UL502: The best way I could describe this head is that it is a little more refined bigger LM II. Is it better then the LM II, with shellys cabs, it sounded, bigger and tighter. Is it 1000$ better? The second most versatile head of the bunch, it could get surprisingly vintage, and did not sound Hi-fi to me at all (as many have described it). It's biggest drawback, it's the second most expensive head of the group listing for 2200$

The Mark SD 800: This is the hi-fi head in the group. It loved the MTD's and had a big round low end, but a little bit to much sizzle (like the WW) IMO in the high end. I would kind of think of it as a poor mans Walter Woods. It was my least favorite head of the group, but still very, very good. If your a six string solo slinger playing in a Jazz combo, this head would be very hard to beat.

The LM II: HOW DO THEY DO IT??? Wow, I understand the TB amp of the month now. While it wasn't as refined as the Epi or as punchy as the T'Funk the differences were much more subtile then most front of house men would notice. It had plenty of headroom, decent construction and sounded pretty good with everything. There was no rig it didn't like although it seemed to shine thru Shelly's smaller tighter cabs. All in all a great value.
 
#5
Ahhhh.....I just got home and I am waiting for my hearing to come back.

Here's my take. I agree that there was not a bad-sounding head (or speaker) in the room. I really like the sound and weight of my LDS cabs. Steve's LDS cabs (210 and 212) also sound great and move a lot of air.

I was also impressed with the 210 XST cab...this thing is loud and boy can it take some wattage! I'd describe the cab as sounding like an Eden, but minus the midrange sizzly highs that can sometimes come from an Eden rig. It had nice low frequency extension, too, and handled the low B very well.

Mikebass's Ampeg Portabass combo was probably the surprise of the day...a tiny little 2X8 combo. Very loud and nice tone.

On to the heads:

Eden WT 800: This head did in fact seem very warm...a little too warm for me using its flat settings, but nothing that a slight EQ tweak or turn of the Enhance knob couldn't cure. Sounded nice and solid, like it would support a band very well. I like this much better than my WT500, even though they're supposed to be based on the same design. The only thing I'd hate about that head is the weight.

Thunderfunk 550B: I like this one, too, especially without the tube emulation on. It seemed in the middle of the hi-fi/vintage scale and was really smooth. Really sounds nice with both sets of speakers.

The Epi UL502 and LMII (these are my heads, so I'll talk about them simultaneously): I like the low frequency extension on the Epi vs. the LMII. The Epi does sound a little hi-fi, but does have nice warmth to it. It also seems slightly tighter than the LMII. I used both in a rehearsal a few days ago. Both sounded great, but the Epi seemed to "sit under" the other instruments nicely with its low-end extension, while the LMII was very articulate and cut through the band without calling attention to itself. Honestly, if I came across the Epi at $1600 (retails for about 2200 I think) vs. the LMII at $600.00, I'd be hard-pressed to buy the Epi, but the Epi at about $1000 used was a great deal (thanks Quad :) ).

The Mark SD 800: This head was a bit sizzly, but also has a nice drive to it. Ken and I agreed that this is probably the head to compare to the Epi in terms of sound and price point. I love the filters on the MarkBass heads.

All in all, a great hang. I'm glad that I was never in a music store with all of these heads...I'd never make up my mind (except the Epi (new) and Walter Woods would be out due to price point). I was really expecting to like a model or two much more (or less) than the others, but that didn't happen.
 
#7
This is great, just the reviews I had been waiting for. I absolutely agree with all the descriptions of the UL502. It has been my head of choice for some time now, and will continue to be so. I would still love to check out a LMII though one day, as it sounds like it would be a great compliment to my UL502.
 
#8
One other quick point, LDS cabs rock. Shelly and I have totally different designs. Both are examples of cabs that compare well with some of the best boutique stuff on the market. Shelly payed less for her 210 and 115 then a lot of the 210's on the market! I don't think anyone there would have felt under-gunned with either of these stacks. And as much as I like Epiphanis (great cabs) the LDS cabs stack up very well against them for considerably less money.

And yet another point, the one thing I'll give the Walter woods over all the others is that it was the most transparent. The sound of the bass really came through. All of the other heads added a little of their own color. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
 
#9
+1 to all the above. Nice hang!

Just of few more thoughts.

The rig of the day for me was Michele's LDS stack and the Walter Woods with one of the J Basses we had on site. That Walter can really surprise you some time. It can sound rather anemic through some cabs, but man, it was punchin' through that LDS stack. It's interesting to me that I heard a lot of the differences I hear between the Epifani B&C loaded cabs and Eminence loaded cabs in Steve's B&C LDS stack and Michele's Eminence LDS stack... with Steve's having that BIG low end and upper mid clarity, and Michele's being a little tighter and more even. Both great, but the newest Eminence drivers seem to work really well with the Walter (and the SD800).

The biggest boom... SD800 hands down... massive low end and volume. However, it does have a much more 'solid state' sort of sound. Not as clinical to my ear as the iAmp, for example, but it was kind of 'cold' sounding versus all the other heads, even the Walter. I actually like it quite a bit, but it is a different sort of animal versus the LMII and Epi head... which were each just as crisp, but had more pleasing mids to my ear.

Epi502... Really nice. It is on the heavy end of the 'lightweight amp' continuum (felt like maybe 20-22 pounds... just a little under the WT800's 26 pounds or so). It worked REALLY well with Michele's new stack, and sounded just enough different from the LMII with those speakers to pull ahead of it a little with that stack (i.e., a little bigger on the low end, a little smoother in the mids, and a little more airy and pleasant up high). I guess like some others have pointed out, it didn't seem to have any fit and finish or 'quality' advantages to the Markbass stuff to me (i.e., knobs and switched didn't feel super high quality, etc.). But, it sounded really nice. Interestingly, each channel sounded a little different. We virtually all liked the bottom channel the best... crisp and deep, but with a touch of warmth and character.... maybe just a touch of inherent mid scoop to the entire voicing. That kind of voicing sounds REALLY good when played solo. I'd really like to get that head on a gig and see if it would punch through a mix enough versus the LMII or TF. Michele's comment about it 'sitting under the band' versus the LMII punching through rings true to me from what I heard.

I liked the way the mute automatically engages at start-up. The 'slap scoop' switch was totally useless, like on most other amps (massive smiley face EQ). Finally, the general EQ was quite subtle on the amp to me, which in some ways was pretty cool... it was more subtle tone modification than the total revoicing capabilities of the TF, Eden, and Markbass tone controls. The inherent sound of the amp was always there, and the bass, mid and treble worked well adjusting the amp slightly to the very different sounding basses we were using. I liked the 'treble shift' control on channel two quite a bit. Set at the lower setting, it worked like most other 4K or so shelving treble controls. Shifted up to the 6K setting, it almost acted a little bit like the vintage speaker emulation control on the MB when engaged at a low level (like 8 or 9 o'clock), just taking a touch of sizzle out of the top end without messing with the upper mid response. Nice! That worked VERY well on the Sadowsky UV that was there without VTC.

I think the lack of widespread use of this amp is primarily due to the price point. I liked it quite a bit, but the price/value was a little out of wack to me.

Lot's written on many threads about the LMII and TF, so won't go there.

Edit: And +1 to Michele's comment on Mike's little Ampeg 2x8 combo. I'm not a big Ampeg fan, and in general don't like the Portabass stuff AT ALL. However, sometimes magic happens, and this little combo is the real deal. We used this combo many times at LDS when a new bass came in to 'really hear what it sounds like'. This little beast is loud, VERY accurate sounding, lightweight. Very impressive, and loud enough to do a small gig. Dr. Cheese has one also. Nice 'micro combo' IMO.
 
#11
FroggyOne2 said:
Ken,

Thanks for that.. for me it really brought some light to how the amps are.

Me personally, I am in the process of getting a Thunderfunk.

Randy
Click to expand...

The TF is GREAT sounding. We didn't go into big detail above since SO much has been written about it. To me, for the heads we checked out at this hang, it was closest in tone to the EdenWT800... but smaller, lighter, just as loud, punchier, and higher build quality all around. Not that the WT800 is a slouch.. that's a classic, great sounding head. But the TF is just great if you like warm, punchy, articulate, but not super modern, sizzly, hi fi, or whatever.
 
#14
I had a chance to revisit the SD800 last night on a gig playing through a pair of Berg 12's and also tried it with a pair of BagEnd 15's. All I can say it is the most overhyped piece of crap I have ever played through in my life. Absolutely no definition and felt like I never came close to having any kind of control with it. Switched over to a Gibson GB440(aka TFB420) and it was wonderful. I have owned or presently own every amp in this shootout and everyone of them far out class the Markbass stuff. I used to think the MB may be good considering the cost, but after last night I consider a waste of money. That's my $.02, ya'll have it!
 
#15
Reefer said:
I had a chance to revisit the SD800 last night on a gig playing through a pair of Berg 12's and also tried it with a pair of BagEnd 15's. All I can say it is the most overhyped piece of crap I have ever played through in my life. Absolutely no definition and felt like I never came close to having any kind of control with it. Switched over to a Gibson GB440(aka TFB420) and it was wonderful. I have owned or presently own every amp in this shootout and everyone of them far out class the Markbass stuff. I used to think the MB may be good considering the cost, but after last night I consider a waste of money. That's my $.02, ya'll have it!
Click to expand...

Ha! Reefer... what do you really think!

Here's what I will agree with. The SD800 sounds VERY different than the TF. I can surely see those that would greatly appreciate one versus the other. I actually like them both for what they are....

The SD800 has become my primary gigging head, and with the right cabinet pairing, to my ear, it's stunning for the tone I try to achieve:)
 
#17
Quadzilla said:
One thing about Reefer, the man speaks his mind! :p
Click to expand...


:D Nothin' wrong with that! I've been known to be massively unimpressed with a few things that are also loved by others. That's what makes the world go round:)

That being said, as I've posted before, similar to the Walter Woods (IMO and IME), the SD800 can sound very good, or not so much. The LMII and Thunderfunk have sounded great through virtually every cab I've ever played them through.
 
#19
KJung said:
Ha! Reefer... what do you really think!

Here's what I will agree with. The SD800 sounds VERY different than the TF. I can surely see those that would greatly appreciate one versus the other. I actually like them both for what they are....

The SD800 has become my primary gigging head, and with the right cabinet pairing, to my ear, it's stunning for the tone I try to achieve:)
Click to expand...

I agree with the opinions that the MarkBass and Epifani are somewhat similar in tone when I play them in my bedroom, but having used the Markbass amps on a number of gigs now I would take the Epi without batting an eye over the MB if that was the type tone I was striving for.
 
#20
Reefer said:
I agree with the opinions that the MarkBass and Epifani are somewhat similar in tone when I play them in my bedroom, but having used the Markbass amps on a number of gigs now I would take the Epi without batting an eye over the MB if that was the type tone I was striving for.
Click to expand...

I would enjoy getting that 502 on a gig. It really was quite impressive. I again have always had GREAT luck in a live setting with the LMII. The SD800 has been mixed, but now with the 410UL (II), I really dig it. However, I think I agree with you that heads that seem fussy (i.e., that sound good with some cabs, but can sound honky, thin, overextended, whatever) with other cabs probably have some inherent limitation to the design (e.g., a class D amp that is not totally dialed in... that part is over my head but has been mentioned by some EE types).

I'm the first one to say if the boys over in Italy ever come out with an SA800, I'm there in a BIG WAY!:bassist:
 

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