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seperate mid/high box

CrackBass

CrackBass

Aug 10, 2004
880
35
52
huntsville,AL
#1
hey guys. lately i have been getting into the stand alone 15 sound and i have some plans in the works for a couple of single 15 cabs. i am currently kicking around an idea to head off future gas. i have always enjoyed the hi-fi bass sound and it is concievable that i might want to return to it at some point, or need that sound for a gig. i think it was passinwind who posted a pick of his seperate mid/high box, and it got me thinking about building my own at some point. i plan to use kappalite 3015's in my cabinets (not lf's) for stand alone use. i figured i could make a seperate small cab for a mid/tweet that would bolt to the side of one of them (it would also swivel so i could angle it up on gigs where i ran just one cab). what would be a good combination of drivers to use in this situation? cost is flexible, but i don't want to go the super expensive route. the crossover would be passive and contained whithin the mid/high cab. also am i making a mistake by using 2 3015's or would you go with 1 3015 and 1 3015lf? these would probably be used without the mid/high box most of the time, but who can say about my gigging requirements a couple of years from now.
 
#2
CrackBass said:
i think it was passinwind who posted a pick of his seperate mid/high box, and it got me thinking about building my own at some point.
Click to expand...

I did post a few pics of my DIY top box, and fdeck has in the past as well. I have a new one nearly done too, but it's more oriented to PA applications, which in my case means guitar synth and processed vocals mostly. I haven't decided whether to hassle with a passive crossover for it, since that was a huge part of the time and expense of the first one.

Anyhow, I haven't tried the non-LF 3015 yet, but the LF (which I've used a fair amount at this point) won't be ideal as a stand alone box for too many bassists who don't want a really old school tone IMHO.

So, what's your comfort zone on budget for the mid/tweeter/crossover?
 
#3
not sure yet about my budget, just kinda need some options to think about. about the 3015 vs the 3015lf i was considering using one of each as an option. so far i've been leaning towards going with two 3015's since i plan to run stand alone most of the time. i can't help but wonder if one 3015lf might be better in the long run. the extension box would be used in situations where i wanted the super hi-fi sound i used to be so enamoured with. i used to play a lot of funk and slap a whole lot, but now i play more staight ahead rock and less with the slappin' and poppin' so super hi-fi doesn't quite do it for what i'm going for these days. however i might concievably have a need for such a sound in the future, so i'm just trying to get what i want now, and cover my basses in the future too (no pun intended).
 
#4
The 3015 is about +1 dB more sensitive than the LF. It runs in a box about 2/3 that required by the 3015LF. Low frequency extension (F3) is better with the 3015LF.

It all depends upon what you want. The 3015 is nice and flat to 1,000 Hz, then has a dome-induced spike up to 2,000 Hz. The 3015LF is similar, but with a sharper spike above 1,000 Hz. See the Eminence PDF datasheets for the graph.

Either driver requires a midbass driver to avoid beaming. The Alpha 6 is less sensitive by 5 dB, so you will have a thicker sound below 1,00 Hz. This same problem also applies to various Alpha 8 and Beta 8 drivers.

The 3015 is a hot bass driver and there is not a single Eminence small driver match for it. A 2x6 top would be a much better match. Cross over around 800 Hz to avoid beaming, and still protect the small driver. An active crossover is highly recommended due to the different impedance loads of 1x15 and 2x6.
 
#5
yea i know about the beaming characteristics of 15's. i never thought i would like gigging with two 15's until i tried it. i found that beaming was not a problem. go figure. i was also running a 50hz filter on my amp and the bass response was fine. i like running the 30 hz filter slightly better but there isn't much difference with the cab i am currently using (pv 215 with 2 black widows) i ran the 50 hz filter cause i don't feel super confident about the bw's performance at high volumes at those frequencies. i will probably use the 30hz filter with the new cabs, but i can't say till i hear them. my goal is a pair of speakers that can get a good "modern vintage" sound and go to a full range hi-fi type sound when needed.
 
#6
bgavin said:
The 3015 is a hot bass driver and there is not a single Eminence small driver match for it. A 2x6 top would be a much better match. Cross over around 800 Hz to avoid beaming, and still protect the small driver. An active crossover is highly recommended due to the different impedance loads of 1x15 and 2x6.
Click to expand...

I actually bought two B&C 6.5" drivers (6MD38) to go with my 3015LF. I ended up using only one, and padding it substantially to boot. I found that a first order cross at ~800Hz is sufficient protection, at least for the way I use the cabs. When I subbed in the 18Sound 6ND410 results were quite similar. YMMV, and be aware that I'm not a rocker at all. I'm still going to try building a 2X6 anyway though.

I've also messed with quite a few active crossover experiments, since my Rane speaker controller allows all kinds of scary configurations that "shouldn't" work. But there's no reason you can't design a passive crossover to work with different impedances on the top and the bottom, is there Bruce?
 
#7
that driver seems like it would work well without breaking the bank. what about a tweet? i mean if i'm going to do this then i might as well go all out. any reccommendations for the crossover freq as well. something around 2500-3500?
 
#9
CrackBass said:
that driver seems like it would work well without breaking the bank. what about a tweet? i mean if i'm going to do this then i might as well go all out. any recommendations for the crossover freq as well. something around 2500-3500?
Click to expand...

I went with a high cross at around 3K. I'll revisit that when I get a chance to hook that box up in active triamped mode. You might just be happy with the high response of one of these 6'ers anyway though?

Here's the driver I used: Ciare 1.38TW. I'm really impressed by this tweeter, especially for the price. But again, I needed to pad it down a fair bit to get what I wanted out of it.

My other cabs are using BMS compression drivers, one on a Selenium horn (because it fit perfectly in the allotted space), the other on an 18Sound one. I'll have pics of the new top box as soon as I get some cosmetic detailing working out. It sounded pretty danged good at first blush though.
 
#10
The suggestions of the B&C and 18Sound drivers are excellent. The smaller Eminences are nowhere near as good. Other options are Ciare and Beyma.
For HF CD's, just go BMS. Superb sound and construction and fairly near indestructable. You'll also need a GOOD flare and 18Sound or DDS are the picks of the litter here.

The design detail depends on what you want to spend, and whether you're willing to biamp.
 
#11
Passinwind said:
But there's no reason you can't design a passive crossover to work with different impedances on the top and the bottom, is there Bruce?
Click to expand...
None at all. At higher frequencies, the components are much less costly due to small capacities.

I would use an active crossover first, to dial in the desired crossover frequency that pleases the ear. Then I would measure the actual impedance of the 2x box at the crossover frequency. Do the same for the woofer. These are the actual impedances working for this rig at the specified crossover frequency. This is anal, but it gets you close to perfection. I'd use the Linkwitz-Riley type, rather than Butterworth.

I'm a fan of B&C, Selenium, and Beyma. I've consider Beyma to be the Spanish JBL for a long time. Very well made, big voice coils, etc. Some of these drivers will accept full power in vented boxes without exceeding Xmax. Very few drivers will do this. None of the Eminence drivers will do it.
 
#12
bgavin said:
I'm a fan of B&C, Selenium, and Beyma. I've consider Beyma to be the Spanish JBL for a long time. Very well made, big voice coils, etc. Some of these drivers will accept full power in vented boxes without exceeding Xmax. Very few drivers will do this. None of the Eminence drivers will do it.
Click to expand...
Beyma are great. I'll have 4 18LX60's here soon.

Last comment about the Eminence, I'll question. I've got the 3015LF modelled up very close to the med vented box in the app notes and it doesn't exceed Xmax above the tuning freq of 42Hz until 620W. The Eminence graph on p8 is very close to mine.

This is the only driver of theirs that interests me greatly so I haven't modelled any of the others, so I'll take your word on them.
 
#13
bgavin said:
I would use an active crossover first, to dial in the desired crossover frequency that pleases the ear. Then I would measure the actual impedance of the 2x box at the crossover frequency. Do the same for the woofer. These are the actual impedances working for this rig at the specified crossover frequency. This is anal, but it gets you close to perfection.
Click to expand...

Heh, doing that sort of drill was part of my rationalization for buying the Rane controller widget (RPM26z). I used the manufacturers' impedance graphs for my passive crossover designs on my last few DIY projects, and even doing that I saw quite a variation from the nominal impedance ratings in some cases. Hardly a surprise, but there you go.;)
 
#14
yea i had planned on testing the box with an active crossover, but running it with a passive. i know that active is much better from an audiophile standpoint, but i like the simplicity (once it's built) of the passive design. plus i wouldn't have to reconfigure my amp to change setups, just plug in an extra box, and no crossover taking up valuable rack realestate (that wouldn't get used much of the time). minor issues but everybody has their own requirements right?
 
#15
The active crossover is superior on many fronts. First, is the 24dB/octave slope. You can do this passive, but it requires a lot of components, is expensive, and larger than a 1RU active box. Active is done at line level, not speaker level, and is immune to impedance variation. The steep slope is very protective of delicate high frequency components.

Yes, there certainly is merit in keeping the rack size down. I put my Link Removed, which is a bit larger than a Walter Woods amp. The Minx has no line out, so it requires a rig with a passive crossover. Perched on a tiny S2010 cab, the Minx is an ideal micro rig.

Locate the passive crossover in the HIGH box. When you connect to the bottom box solo, it runs full range. When you connect to the HIGH box, it has a LOW Out jack that connects the bottom box as LOW.

If building this from scratch, I would do it this way: Two Basslite S2010 in parallel at 4 ohms, 101 SPL for the pair, Flat alignment. 3015LF at 99 SPL, Flat alignment. Locate the crossover in the 3015LF. Run the S2010 pair as stand-alone full range, or as HIGH when connected to 3015LF.

The S2010 require 0.94 cubic feet each, making them an ideal cab for small and portable gigs. Add the 3015LF when more bottom is needed. 250~500 Hz crossover point with simple 1st or 2nd order slope. The tiny S2010s are ideal stage monitors when you have full PA support. Put them up at ear level.
 
#17
well gavin that is certainly a logical suggestion, however it's getting just a bit out of my design goals. i'm kinda thinking extra high end if needed and you're suggesting extra low end if needed. not that you're wrong or anything, it's just a different requirements kind of thing. i plan to run the 15's (one or two depending on venue) stand alone. if i ever need more high end extension or an uber full range sound i'll run the box. maby i'm making things more complicated than they need to be or going about this exactly opposite than is the norm, but i think it would cover most of what i need out of a rig, with some scalabillity and not an undue amount of weight, or bulk.
 
#19
Passinwind said:
Here's a quickie pic of my newest 15/6.5/1.3 combination. This one is running biamped through a Rane speaker management system, with a passive crossover between the mid and high drivers. More to come shortly...

Link Removed
Click to expand...
Very nice, but it's not black. Maybe some rat fur would give it street cred.
 

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