Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Double Bass E flat, D necks Question
- Thread starter VicDamone
- Start date
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
On a D neck, if you hold your fingering hand in position with the thumb comfortably at the heel, your first finger will be at D. E flat is found the same way.
Place your thumb in the "crook" of the neck. Play a note on the fingerboard with your second finger opposing your thumb.
If it's an Eb, then you have an Eb neck. If it's a D, then you have a D neck. The difference is a half step, and more
David Gage expalins it quite well in this articlae.
http://www.bassplayer.com/article/upright-citizens/nov-06/23878
This whole thing about a D neck or Eb neck drives me bonkers.
Learn how to play the bass in tune, and that's all you have to worry about. Don't use the curve of the neck as a "crutch" to figure out where you are.
The number of teachers who teach this and think it is important is beyond me. If you learn your Simandl or other methods of positions and play and listen, what else do you need: white dots on the fingerboard, frets?
Learn how to play the bass in tune, and that's all you have to worry about. Don't use the curve of the neck as a "crutch" to figure out where you are.
The number of teachers who teach this and think it is important is beyond me. If you learn your Simandl or other methods of positions and play and listen, what else do you need: white dots on the fingerboard, frets?
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
Actually, he doesn't explain which finger (1st or 2nd) to designate D or E flat. http://www.bassplayer.com/pop-up.aspx?content_id=23878§ion_code=8Place your thumb in the "crook" of the neck. Play a note on the fingerboard with your second finger opposing your thumb.
If it's an Eb, then you have an Eb neck. If it's a D, then you have a D neck. The difference is a half step, and more
David Gage expalins it quite well in this articlae.
http://www.bassplayer.com/article/upright-citizens/nov-06/238 78
I was taught that it was the 1st, but you may be correct.
Martin, I understand what you are saying, but with 42" to deal with, can we have ONE reference point?
Agreed, whether it is a D or E flat really doesn't matter.
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
As a relative newcomer to DB, I like knowing that when I hit the heel position I know what note I'm getting, whether D or Eb!
I also like that the end of the fingerboard support is F. I don't really get any higher than that.
I also like that the end of the fingerboard support is F. I don't really get any higher than that.
Martin, I heard this referred to the other day and I forgot what it meant. I didn't mean to stir a pot, I just forgot.
Thanks
Vic
Thanks
Vic
- Mar 1, 2002
- 4,237
- 52
- 75
- Disclosures
- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
I own Basses with either. I just get used to the Bass and that's it. I am more concerned with the string length than the D/Eb stop. Actually, the body length and shoulder shape/width plays just as big a role with playing in tune. Some of my Basses are just easier to play and play in tune regardless of the String length or D/Eb factor. I think it's the overall Bass itself.
Like Martin mentioned above, learn to play in tune. Practice scales or parts you know in your head and close your eyes. Listen to the intonation and play until your fingers and ears combined find the notes. This is what I do when I switch Basses to get used to the length. The D/Eb neck stop is just one factor. Your ears and finger play a bigger role.
Like Martin mentioned above, learn to play in tune. Practice scales or parts you know in your head and close your eyes. Listen to the intonation and play until your fingers and ears combined find the notes. This is what I do when I switch Basses to get used to the length. The D/Eb neck stop is just one factor. Your ears and finger play a bigger role.
I don't even pay attention to it. If you're using it as a physical reference, that's not going to work well when you end up playing someone elses bass! The only way to learn to play in tune is, IMO, with an intervalic approach and not a "this note here, that note there" method like you might teach a child. That way you can pick up any instrument out there, even a fretless BG or a Cello and quickly be on the track to playnig it.
As with many "A or B" arguments, the truth lies somewhere in between. Of course, one should not rely solely on, or use as a "crutch," a physical position such as where the D lies on the neck. As most of us know, however, achieving good intonation, especially during rapid passages, involves a good ear as well as muscle memory. Those physical landmarks guide the ballistic movements that bring you rapidly into the ballpark of the intended note. This is not to say that a D-neck or an Eb neck is the superior one. Neither is this to say that a good player cannot switch rapidly from one to the other. The adaptation can occur very quickly. One should not, however, discount the contribution of the physical "feel" and positional memory to achieving good intonation. It's a matter of well-established principles of the discipline of human factors research.
+1 It's like training wheels on a bike when we were kids. The training wheels don't teach you anything about riding the bike; balance, turning, etc. They just keep you from falling on your butt. Intonation is in the ear (well, brain actually), not the fingers. My bass neck is in between a D and Eb I think, but I've never paid attention to it - whether it was in my formative years or as a pro.
Chris
My point being that you do pay attention to it and you have. What you have not done is relied upon it as your sole reference. I'd venture to say that you, like many of us who have been playing for a long time, do not think "Oh, I have to play a D, I'll shoot for the crook in the neck." On the other hand, whether you are aware of it or not, you really are relying to some extent on the proprioceptive (muscle, touch, etc.) feedback that you are receiving.
I think reference points are a great thing to have. I'm sorry it drives you bonkers. But the more I meet notable players in high profile orchestras the more I realize, anything you can do to keep yourself in tune is fair game. That includes knowing whether you have a D or Eb neck and yes markers on the fingerboard. In the CSO and Lyric I can assure you more than one player uses both. I know cause I've seen them. Use this link: Invalid Link Removed to see a picture of Dan Armstrong of the CSO and his bass. At any rate I'm not trying to bull bait for an argument. But I don't think its a crutch but a reference. Big difference. Anything one can do to not be a liability usurps all of this other talk of not using references. It's a bit like macho grandstanding I think. All this talk about these things being a crutch and not allowing you to develop your ear is, well driving me bonkers. YMMV.
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
Edgar Meyer???????
Sure, it is the ideal to be able to play perfectly in tune based on muscle memory and perfect hand position. In the real world, however there are variables. Knowing whether that spot is a D or E flat is a reference point. My F is just slightly below the end of the neck. Those are reference points, but I still have to use my ears to check intonation.
If anyone thinks they can stick a finger on a spot on the fingerboard and always expect the note to be in tune, just because it is where their thumb goes, they need to get a clue. Reference points, not crutches.
I'll be going to a jam session this afternoon to play a bass with a E flat neck. Adjusting to different basses may just take a minute and knowing how they differ makes it easier.
If all of this is irrelevant, why is there even a distinction? This is often mentioned in a description of basses being offered for sale.
Returning to the original David Gage article, he seemed to think it was somewhat important.
Sure, it is the ideal to be able to play perfectly in tune based on muscle memory and perfect hand position. In the real world, however there are variables. Knowing whether that spot is a D or E flat is a reference point. My F is just slightly below the end of the neck. Those are reference points, but I still have to use my ears to check intonation.
If anyone thinks they can stick a finger on a spot on the fingerboard and always expect the note to be in tune, just because it is where their thumb goes, they need to get a clue. Reference points, not crutches.
I'll be going to a jam session this afternoon to play a bass with a E flat neck. Adjusting to different basses may just take a minute and knowing how they differ makes it easier.
If all of this is irrelevant, why is there even a distinction? This is often mentioned in a description of basses being offered for sale.
Returning to the original David Gage article, he seemed to think it was somewhat important.
:
Clink,
I was writing my response at the same time you posted, so I wasn't referring to your fingering choice. You are correct about the article not saying what finger to use as a gauge (1st or 2nd). Looking at the photo, I believe that it depicts a Simandl fingering at the crook.
We have all been taught by different methods (Simandl, Bille, Rabath, etc) which use different fingerings. If you're like me, you might use a combination of several methods depending on the the musical challenge that presents itself. In any event, if you're playing in tune (as someone pointed out), and the music is moving both you and the listener, then you're on the correct path, whether it's Eb or D.
Have a great gig tonight everyone
Everett Boyd
Actually, he doesn't explain which finger (1st or 2nd) to designate D or E flat. http://www.bassplayer.com/pop-up.aspx?content_id=23878§ion_code=8
I was taught that it was the 1st, but you may be correct.
Martin, I understand what you are saying, but with 42" to deal with, can we have ONE reference point?
Clink,
I was writing my response at the same time you posted, so I wasn't referring to your fingering choice. You are correct about the article not saying what finger to use as a gauge (1st or 2nd). Looking at the photo, I believe that it depicts a Simandl fingering at the crook.
We have all been taught by different methods (Simandl, Bille, Rabath, etc) which use different fingerings. If you're like me, you might use a combination of several methods depending on the the musical challenge that presents itself. In any event, if you're playing in tune (as someone pointed out), and the music is moving both you and the listener, then you're on the correct path, whether it's Eb or D.
Have a great gig tonight everyone
Everett Boyd
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
I like to have a reference point, but not a crutch. It is probably how I am fingering the reference point, but the crook of my neck is actually between D & Eb. I have my DB, and I have a fretted and a fretless BG. Everyone of them is a different scale length, different neck widths, etc. Ear training is pretty much essential for me. I know that the crook is 'around' the octave of the next lowest string, but that is really the only reference I have, or use. The rest is ear training. The same as I know the double dot on the BG is the octave of that string, but they are in different spots, depending on the instrument.
- Aug 1, 2005
- 3,546
- 1,421
- Disclosures
- Private Inventor - Bass Capos
I don't use the heel to find F or G (I probably do, but am unaware of it), but If I've got to make a sudden leap to Ab, I find that reference point invaluable. Personally, I try to avoid daring leaps by playing the preceding lower notes higher on the neck. When I was studying with Homer, one thing that would really infuriate him was to see me make a shift to reach a high note when it was possible to already be in position for it. I know not everyone teaches or plays this way, but it works for me!
Robobass
Maybe I should try to expand on my point? The reason this issue drives my "bonkers" is two fold. First, I'm a maker and dealer. I can't tell you how many times I have seen very good basses rejected by teachers for their students because they didn't have a "D" neck. My own teacher mentioned it to me but he never made an issue of it, so when I learned to play I learned from Simandl, the positions, and I never had any trouble adjusting to any bass...well, except one and it had a 44" string length.
As someone else pointed out, basses may have a "D" neck or an "Eb" neck, but many are neither, they are sort of in between.
A couple of years ago I sold one of my Testore models to a symphony player who has the most knock out beautiful old Italian bass I've ever seen. It has an "E" neck! I would sell everything I own for that bass and it wouldn't bother me one wit that it is not only not a "D" neck or an "Eb" neck but an E.
So I think teachers do a diservice to their students when the teach that thumb, finger "D" neck thing, because it isn't necessary and it rules out a lot of fine basses.
all best
As someone else pointed out, basses may have a "D" neck or an "Eb" neck, but many are neither, they are sort of in between.
A couple of years ago I sold one of my Testore models to a symphony player who has the most knock out beautiful old Italian bass I've ever seen. It has an "E" neck! I would sell everything I own for that bass and it wouldn't bother me one wit that it is not only not a "D" neck or an "Eb" neck but an E.
So I think teachers do a diservice to their students when the teach that thumb, finger "D" neck thing, because it isn't necessary and it rules out a lot of fine basses.
all best
- Mar 1, 2002
- 4,237
- 52
- 75
- Disclosures
- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
Yes, in-between if quite common and where the D or Eb actually is varies from Bass to Bass. Not all D-necks are created or rather measured equally.
On the 44" thing, I have played several of them. It is just something you have to get used to or have the fingers for. I think for me and my fingers, 41.5-42" is easiest and for some reason, I like Eb necks. It makes it easier to hit the F# ( G-string) and octave notes. The Neck stand to me is more important along with the shoulder relationship than this D/Eb subject.
Anyone can get used to either note stop but if you can't get over the shoulders, what does it matter. I think the big picture here is playability.
For comparison sake, we should look at the bouts, shoulder shape, neck stand, string length and note/heel stop all combined. Even 10 Basses with D-necks will have varying degrees of playability and a single Eb Bass might play easier than half of them to some D-brained player!
On the 44" thing, I have played several of them. It is just something you have to get used to or have the fingers for. I think for me and my fingers, 41.5-42" is easiest and for some reason, I like Eb necks. It makes it easier to hit the F# ( G-string) and octave notes. The Neck stand to me is more important along with the shoulder relationship than this D/Eb subject.
Anyone can get used to either note stop but if you can't get over the shoulders, what does it matter. I think the big picture here is playability.
For comparison sake, we should look at the bouts, shoulder shape, neck stand, string length and note/heel stop all combined. Even 10 Basses with D-necks will have varying degrees of playability and a single Eb Bass might play easier than half of them to some D-brained player!
