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Glock Heart Rock vs Epi UL502 vs iAMP800 vs MBass LMK vs Eden WT800 for Berg AE410

M

MG Bass

Apr 20, 2008
236
3
Sydney, NSW, Australia
#1
Hi Everyone,

I’m fairly new to Talkbass having discover it through a friend but must say how extremely useful I have found it since joining. This happened when I was in the market for a Speaker upgrade recently and now I’m ready for an Amp upgrade.

Thought I’d post my thoughts, and observations after spending 3 hours testing yesterday in my quest to upgrade my current amp (Labsystem 400B) good ol’ Aussie amp. I’ve had this amp now for close to 12 years and it has served me well but I think I’m ready to move up to a better performing head which will do justice to my new cabs.

Firstly let me give George from Bass Gear Direct here in Sydney a big thumbs up and thankyou for all his time and help he has given me so far. I really have appreciated it and am extremely happy with my purchase of the AE410 & AE112.:)
I have never experienced this type of service before and SOME of the BIGGER retailers should take a leaf out of some of these smaller boutique operators. Anyway down to the “nitty gritty”.

I’ve listed the heads I tested in order of preference. George has a used Mark Bass LMK, Epifani UL502, and Eden WT800C all in mint condition and working order. So I thought this would be a great opportunity to hear all the heads I’m interested in all in the one room at the same time. Also, to add to this was the Glockenklang Heart Rock and iAMP800. I did my testing mainly with my Yamaha TRB-5P – neck through – Bart pickups.

1. Glockenklang Heart Rock 1000watts @ 2.6 ohms - $2600 AUS new.
This was my favourite and best sounding of the lot :bassist:. It was ultra quick and very punchy and full tone. The lows sounded full tight and defined, mids full and punchy but clear and the highs were as sweet as and not harsh at all. It really did stand out from the rest. It’s hard to explain how this amp is very transparent but still has a character about it that sounds beautiful without too much messing around. I bypassed the EQ completely and the sound was perfect. The notes really had a nice full body to them and seemed to jump out of the cab no matter what position of the neck I played. It really let the character of the AE410 shine through. For an SS head it sounded very warm but defined and I could get it to growl if I wanted to. The weight is not an issue for me. It didn’t feel that bad and it is within my budget of $3000 AUS.

2. Epifani UL502 - $1600 AUS used, 600 watts @ 4 ohms.
This was my second favourite of the lot. It had similar qualities of the Glockenklang amp. Has nice full lows, full clear mids, just seemed slightly scooped and the highs were nice and cutting. Seemed a touch harsher than the Glock. The Epi also displayed a certain solid feel about the sound coming out of the rig just not quite as full and clear as the Glock. This was especially noticeable at higher volume. Was also very quick and responsive. The build definitely didn’t feel as solid as the Glock but none of the heads did except for maybe the WT800. However at $1600 AUS used, this made it quite attractive. Though, the solid tone and simplicity of the Glock made me feel like going all out and paying the extra $1000 for a better built, better performing head and being happy for at least another 12 years as with my Labyy.

3. iAMP800 - $1600 AUS 1000watts @ 2 ohms new.
This amp was very close to the UL502. It was very easy to use with the AE410 as well. Basically bypassed the EQ and presets and that was it! This was the best setting with this amp for the AE410. This amp really let the AE410 character shine through without too much messing about. It was very close to the Epi UL502 except for the midrange where the Epi seemed to sound warmer (I’m assuming this was due to the slightly scooped perception I had of the UL502). The iamp seemed a little more wider and transparent in the lows. The only reason I would favour this amp over the over UL502 would be that it goes down to 2 ohms and this would suit a AE410 / AE210 or AE112 combination, and it has more gig friendly features such as multi configurations for DI use and effect loops.

4. MarkBass LMK $1100 used, 500 watts @ 4 ohms.This is basically the LM II in a 2 channel version. Anyway it certainly (to my ears at least) has a strong midrange presence, which needed tweaking to get it to sound right with the AE410 :hmm:. I could see where this would work in some situations but could also get frustrating in others situations. To me it sort of adds more of what the AE410 already has which is not what I would prefer. To me this is different to an amp “enhancing” what the cab already does if that makes any sense. Again this amp was quick, tight, and very punchy but no where near as full or clean as the Epi or Glock. I also thought the notes when played didn’t seem to carry as well as the others at higher volume. Though, I have to admit at that price it is excellent value if you are limited by budget. It does also feel a little more fragile obviously because of the weight. For me I would definitely consider this or the LM II as a backup amp at some time in the future.

5. Eden WT800C $2200 AUS used – 1100watts @ 4 ohms.
I’m afraid this was the least appealing to me with the AE410 :rollno:. Set completely flat it sounded dead ! There was that tube warmth there, but for some reason the tone wasn’t as full, clear and solid as the others. Definitely helped clean and fatten things up a bit by slightly using the Enhance knob but then this would make the sound thinner. It just would muddy up with the increase in volume. It had fatness but not as much definition. Needed more messing around with the EQ to get it to where I wanted it. I really think this amp’s character was in conflict with the AE410. Before I went to this audition I was really hoping to come away with the Eden at that price due to everything I have heard over the years and read, but it really wasn’t up to at least the Glock and Epi for me.

So in Summary – I am pretty sold on the Glockenklang and ready to jump on it even though it is $1000 AU more than it’s nearest rivals and $400 more than a used Eden WT800. It does everything I want including being stable down to 2.6 ohms at 1000watts where as none of the rivals can do this except for the iamp. I feel I would be buying a much more solidly built amp overall and, an almost perfect bass tone. However, the Epi is very attractive as well, but it is used, so I’m not sure what backround it’s had though it is in mint condition. A new UL502 I’d be looking at $2150 AUS, still $450 cheaper than the Glock BUT I really loved the sound of the Glock.

Now guys, I’d love to hear your thoughts on what you would do in my shoes also any other peoples experiences with some of these heads with the Berg AE410. I also want to try to get around to testing the Berg out with an Aguilar DB750 and Thunderfunk 750. At this stage the DB750 is way out of my price range at $5000AU new but not sure on the price of the Tfunk.

So what do you all think ?
 
#2
Wow, I would have thought the Eden would have matched up real nice with the AE. It's a lot like the TF which loves the AE. I must admit I like midrange punch, a lot, because that's what cuts throw the mix. While a tone with a lot of highs and lows sounds great in the shop, on the gig you almost can't have enough punch.

One note to keep in mind, that "fullness" you love in the music store, may end up being boominess that is hard to control in some rooms. Especially in a pop / rock context. OTOH, if your playing jazz or fusion in smaller rooms (you can't fill a big room with that stuff anyway:D) that big full sound can really work.

Anyway, As far as the Thunderfunk, unless you need the power I'd go with the 550B used. A new 750 is almost two grand. And personally I love that combo with a J type Bass. This thread hear is quick basement comparison with a bunch of Super J bases and the AE cab.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=405659

I'm also not surprised that you liked the Heart Rock. All of that power has a way of making everything sound really big, almost three dimensional. KJung use to have one and it was an eye opener when we played it with my 210 cab.

The Epi UL502 is a great head and a lot more natural sounding then I thought it would be. It has a cool kind warmth going for it. Our take here was it was like a bigger more refined LM II. My only beef with it is price.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362538

I use to own the big Aggie (DB750) and gave it up because of weight and boominess. It sounds GREAT at low volume, perhaps one of the most even best amps I've heard at lower levels. But at Gig volumes, the EQ wasn't flexible enough for me to control the boominess of the bass response. I have a feeling that amp works better with Cabs designed for Tube heads. I've heard it with Bergie NV's and it was killer. But I can't imagine it sounding exceptional with the AE. I guess you want know till you try it.

Here's a couple more threads that our relevant.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=405338&highlight=Shootout

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=405659

Hope this helps.
 
#4
+1 To Burk's comment. I too was incredibly impressed with the Heart Rock and 502 in solo situations:smug:

All nice heads... hard to go wrong, and the mid character of the AE410 'helps' those 'wider voiced' heads in a mix also.

I had already sold my HR by the time I got the AE410, but have played the 502 (which is similarly voiced) with the AE410.. nice, but just lacks that even response and 'flatness' I personally hear with the LMII. The 502 really does sound 'pretty' with the AE410, but it is just a little too wide, big and mellow for my personal tone on a gig in a mix. Nice though... I could be very happy with it!

I would think the Glock would sound pretty amazing with that cab!
 
#5
+1 I agree with everything Burk has said except the DB750. I've been using a DB750 (granted it has the "tube swap" to tighten things up a bit) with the AE410 and sometimes the AE410/AE210 stack. It has NEVER gotten boomy on me with these cabs. There is massive low end going on, but the AE's are so tight they hold the low end together nicely, and allow it to become very punchy.
here's my findings which are just IMHO and in a live band context...I've also tried the ul502, which I love with my UL410(I), but it's just a little too sterile with the ae410. The Shuttle 6.0, I can't get enough volume out of it without clipping like crazy(I play loud). I used a Carvin DCM1500 with the Shuttle 6.0 as a preamp with some good results, but it still isn't 'my' sound. Last night I used a Demeter VTBP201s into the Carvin dcm1500 bridged at 1500watts into the AE410. All I have to say is..this cab LOVES power. It just sings at higher volumes with lots of power. I get the same result when I use the DB750/ae410 combo. It seems to take on a very ballsy, traditional, punchy, cutting type of sound. It's almost as massive sounding as the NV215 at loud volumes. The only way I can describe it is, the low end seems to come alive, it almost takes on a 115/410 type of vibe, but the cabs tight low end just keeps things together in the mix soooo nicely. I have 2 more gigs today to get a feel for the Demeter/DCM1500 setup, so far, I'm liking it..it's clean, clear, and it adds that tube 'burp' or 'roundness' to my tone. If you like the cleanliness of the Glockheart and Iamp, you may want to look into the Demeter/poweramp option as well. Nothing wrong with a good ole pre/power setup, especially for someone like me, who plays very loud and needs that extra push and headroom.
 
#6
I too have heard good things about the DB750 retubed. But with the initial expense of about 23-2500$ new, and the ADDITIONAL cost of 2-500$ for NOS telefunkens that gets you pushing the 3000$ price point. I bought used and paid about 1200$ for my DB750, so if you can find a deal used it might make sense. I would love to hear one with good tubes, because I've heard nothing but good, ecspecially about tightening up the low end. But it still remains that with the stock tubes, control of the low end on the 750 is an issue.
 
#8
burk48237 said:
I too have heard good things about the DB750 retubed. But with the initial expense of about 23-2500$ new, and the ADDITIONAL cost of 2-500$ for NOS telefunkens that gets you pushing the 3000$ price point. I bought used and paid about 1200$ for my DB750, so if you can find a deal used it might make sense. I would love to hear one with good tubes, because I've heard nothing but good, ecspecially about tightening up the low end. But it still remains that with the stock tubes, control of the low end on the 750 is an issue.
Click to expand...

Or you could buy used and already retubed, like I did! ;)
 
#9
I've only played a HeartRock for a couple of hours but I have the HeartCore. In my, not so humble opinion, Glockenklang makes the best amps out there and their cabs are neck and neck with the best.

Yes, there are other great cabs out there (GenzBenz GBE-1200 is up there, as is the Aguilar DB-750) but nothing does bass like a Glock.

Dan K.
 
#10
Mark,

I think, from your post, that you already have made your choice. If you go with something else than the Glock, you will always think about it and finaly, after loosing money, come back to it.
;)

If it can help you, you will have absolutly no reason to regreat your Glock buying. I own a Glock stack for nearly five years now and I've never looked back.

Not only it sounds gorgeous, detailed but warm, quick but never arsh, it is also build to last longer than its owner.
:)

Regards
 
#11
Firstly,

thanks to everybody's input and comments. Thanks for all the links to other threads which have some good food for thought.

Shiveringbass,
Your right I have pretty much made up my mind. You can see from my profile I'm not one for going through a lot gear. I always try to choose carefully and stick with it. That's the other reason why I don't mind spending a little more to get something I will be really happy with and stick with it.

I understand how something that sounds pretty in the shop may not cut through in the mix on stage. However, the way I look at it is, which amp gives you a good sound without too much playing around with the EQ. To me the Glock seemed to do this the best. The UL502 to a lesser extent but as explained it did seem a little scooped in the midrange and this may have helped it to sound warmer than the iamp800 and MBass.

The Glock to me didn't come accross as a wide sounding head but seems to have a very even balanced sound. The lows are rich just as much as the mids and highs and the overall tone gives you a nice full and punchy sound which seems to carry with authority but stays very clear and defined. I really can't see how an amp which exhibits these qualities can struggle in any mix. It's hard to explain but I wanted to find an amp that would enhance an already good sounding speaker rather than just add too much of what the speaker already has. This is how I felt about the MBass. The MBass did sound good but needed EQ'ing. The MBass is something which I will definitely look at down the track as a backup amp because of it's size, price etc. But it definitely doesn't sound flat to me. It has a more agressive, strong midrange voice, especially the high mids. To me this is something which the AE410 already has to an extent and really dosn't more of it.

I must say the Eden WT800C was dissapointing. I know I could get it to sound good if I spent time experimenting with the EQ but this is something I always try to avoid. Really, at it's flat setting it just didn't sound too good and I doubt in a live situation it would have made any difference. In fact the Glockenklang sounded warmer (to my ears) but still had a presence that would not have any trouble in any mix. To me the Eden just seemed to muddy up the sound the most.

On top of all this, the Glockeklang build quality compared to the rest is way ahead and defintley feels like it's built to last and take some punishment. This is important to me.

The other point now is that I definitely will want an amp that can handle at least a 2.6 ohm load. So this realy leaves me with the Glock, iamp, DB750 which I have pretty much ruled out because of the price, and the TFunk 750 which from reading I am a little concerned about the overheating at 2.6 ohms.

Anyway keep the comments coming - it's really interesting to see other peoples thoughts and opinions which I really appreciate.

Cheers.

Shiveringbass said:
Mark,

I think, from your post, that you already have made your choice. If you go with something else than the Glock, you will always think about it and finaly, after loosing money, come back to it.
;)

If it can help you, you will have absolutly no reason to regreat your Glock buying. I own a Glock stack for nearly five years now and I've never looked back.

Not only it sounds gorgeous, detailed but warm, quick but never arsh, it is also build to last longer than its owner.
:)

Regards
Click to expand...
 
#12
MG Bass said:
Firstly,

thanks to everybody's input and comments. Thanks for all the links to other threads which have some good food for thought.

Shiveringbass,
Your right I have pretty much made up my mind. You can see from my profile I'm not one for going through a lot gear. I always try to choose carefully and stick with it. That's the other reason why I don't mind spending a little more to get something I will be really happy with and stick with it.

I understand how something that sounds pretty in the shop may not cut through in the mix on stage. However, the way I look at it is, which amp gives you a good sound without too much playing around with the EQ. To me the Glock seemed to do this the best. The UL502 to a lesser extent but as explained it did seem a little scooped in the midrange and this may have helped it to sound warmer than the iamp800 and MBass.

The Glock to me didn't come accross as a wide sounding head but seems to have a very even balanced sound. The lows are rich just as much as the mids and highs and the overall tone gives you a nice full and punchy sound which seems to carry with authority but stays very clear and defined. I really can't see how an amp which exhibits these qualities can struggle in any mix. It's hard to explain but I wanted to find an amp that would enhance an already good sounding speaker rather than just add too much of what the speaker already has. This is how I felt about the MBass. The MBass did sound good but needed EQ'ing. The MBass is something which I will definitely look at down the track as a backup amp because of it's size, price etc. But it definitely doesn't sound flat to me. It has a more agressive, strong midrange voice, especially the high mids. To me this is something which the AE410 already has to an extent and really dosn't more of it.

I must say the Eden WT800C was dissapointing. I know I could get it to sound good if I spent time experimenting with the EQ but this is something I always try to avoid. Really, at it's flat setting it just didn't sound too good and I doubt in a live situation it would have made any difference. In fact the Glockenklang sounded warmer (to my ears) but still had a presence that would not have any trouble in any mix. To me the Eden just seemed to muddy up the sound the most.

On top of all this, the Glockeklang build quality compared to the rest is way ahead and defintley feels like it's built to last and take some punishment. This is important to me.

The other point now is that I definitely will want an amp that can handle at least a 2.6 ohm load. So this realy leaves me with the Glock, iamp, DB750 which I have pretty much ruled out because of the price, and the TFunk 750 which from reading I am a little concerned about the overheating at 2.6 ohms.

Anyway keep the comments coming - it's really interesting to see other peoples thoughts and opinions which I really appreciate.

Cheers.
Click to expand...


Interesting how we all hear things differently. I just could not get the Heart Rock to work for me in a mix. Huge low end, and that very 'voiced' Glock top end. It made all my basses sound like I was playing through a Glock. While the upper line Glock heads seem VERY transparent, quick and clean, the Heart Rock and Soul seem quite different to me. The HR sounds great, but that combination of big, wide low end with somewhat attenuated mids and that unique Glock hi fi treble just was 'too much of a good thing' for me. IMO, of course.

Interestingly, the MB LMII is actually considered quite 'flat'. Remember, flat means not attenuating or boosting any frequencies, which means you get as much upper mids and bass, etc. I agree the LMII is a very different voicing than the very smooth, wide 502 and Heart Rock. You can actually get VERY close to that tone with the LMII by using the VPF filter a touch, which scoops some of the mids out and extends the low end.

Anyway, the 'apples to apples' comparison between the Glock HR and Markbass is the SD800... much wider and more open than the LMII, and much more powerful... and still only about 9 pounds. And it sounds VERY good with the AE410 for the reasons that you describe. I also prefer the F1 to the LMII with the AE410...

I was totally unimpressed with the 502/AE410 matchup. The 502 sucked all the 'growl' out of that cab to my ear. The 502 matches up much better (if you are looking for an even, transparent response) with the Series I EpiUL cabs.

Anyway, all good stuff. I can't quite picture that huge, deep HR on top of that skinny AE cab!!!!

If you get a chance, try the SD800 with the AE... really something if you want it big, loud, modern, clean, hi fi... and small and light!

IMO and IME.
 
#13
I just noticed your 2.67 ohm requirement.

That Glock will just cruise along at that impedance.

I would avoid the iAmp completely... many are noisy, the presets are lame, etc. I would do a detailed search on both that amp and the company before considering one of those.

+1 on the TF750... I think they don't even list 'safe 2 ohm' operation any more on the spec's.

If you don't mind the weight, the Glock with a tight, mid oriented cab that can punch that head up a bit (like the AE410) should be awesome!

One other thing to look at if they are available in your area... the Carvin b1500. Just as loud as the Glock, similar tone (i.e., big, wide and clean), smaller, and safe at 2ohms.

K
 
#14
Ken, thanks for all your input.

What do you think of running the TFunk with the AE410 ?

How would it differ driving it with an LMII, F1 or even the Glock HR seeing you have experience with all these heads ?

Have you heard if the TFunk 750 is stable down to 2.6 ohms or does this still have ??

Thanks.
 
#15
MG Bass said:
Ken, thanks for all your input.

What do you think of running the TFunk with the AE410 ?

How would it differ driving it with an LMII, F1 or even the Glock HR seeing you have experience with all these heads ?

Have you heard if the TFunk 750 is stable down to 2.6 ohms or does this still have ??

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I think we were typing at the same time. No go on the TF for 2ohm operation.

Given your 2.67 ohm requirement, and given the AE410, I think the Glock would just be wonderful!

Sorry I didn't pick up on your impedance requirement before I typed all that stuff about those 4ohm minimum heads!
 
#16
I think we have here a good exemple of "each one have different ears and expectations".

For myself I would never qualify Glock as being scooped. It has just everything in the right spot for my use, so well that in five years of use in gigs, I think I've only used the eq two or three time.

Most gigs, I will just put the eq into bipass and adjust what I need on the bass which means a bit of treb when slapping, just a bit of mids when fingering. to help cutting thourgh my guitarist VHT stack.
;)

For the Glock sound, I think we can speak of some warm that will always be present but all my basses keep their own tone. I've got two Roscoe's with different woods, two very different Warwicks, one ATK (MM clone) and one Carvin (JB clone) and none of them sound the same.

If you tell me that everything sounds the same through a Trace Eliot or an Ampeg (that I know and use every week in our rehersals) I will totaly agree
but but through a Glock... I can only strongly disagree.
;)

Regards
 
#17
Shiveringbass said:
I think we have here a good exemple of "each one have different ears and expectations".

For myself I would never qualify Glock as being scooped. It has just everything in the right spot for my use, so well that in five years of use in gigs, I think I've only used the eq two or three time.

Most gigs, I will just put the eq into bipass and adjust what I need on the bass which means a bit of treb when slapping, just a bit of mids when fingering. to help cutting thourgh my guitarist VHT stack.
;)

For the Glock sound, I think we can speak of some warm that will always be present but all my basses keep their own tone. I've got two Roscoe's with different woods, two very different Warwicks, one ATK (MM clone) and one Carvin (JB clone) and none of them sound the same.

If you tell me that everything sounds the same through a Trace Eliot or an Ampeg (that I know and use every week in our rehersals) I will totaly agree
but but through a Glock... I can only strongly disagree.
;)

Regards
Click to expand...


I'm only talking about the HR and Soul. The other 'upper end' Glock's sound very, very transparent to me. The HR and Soul have a very different voice from the Trace and Ampeg, but IMO and IME it's just as strong of a voice (an unusual combination of warm, big lows, and a very distinctive top end that doesn't sound like any other, combined with very smooth, mellow, warm subtle mids to my ear). Of course, it's a great 'voice' and if you dig it, you dig it! Nice stuff.

Just to be clear, it's not that basses 'sound the same' (I don't really find that with any amp), but rather, they all sound like they are being played 'through the Glock' to me. Again, if you like that voice (which the OP obviously does), this can be a very good thing!
 
#18
I have played an Eden WT-800 through a 410XLT and was very, very impressed. I have heard one through an Ampeg 810 and was less than impressed.

I have played a Glock Heart-Core through a Glock BassArt cab. This was the cleanest sounding setup I've ever heard. Not sterile, but simply a loud version of what the instrument sounded like. It isn't "my" sound (clear & gritty), but it nearly swayed me. The Glock would be my vote. The Eden would be a fine choice as well, but perhaps a different cab might be required.
 
#19
I am a Glock HR owner and use it mostly with a Sadowsky 410 cab which is fairly similar to the AE410. I couldn''t be happier with this combination. I don't know if I'd use the words transparent or flat because that can spark all kinds of debates but I do know that I love the sound and run the amp with the EQ bypassed 90% of the time.

I owned a UL502 for a number of years and find that it is a little rounder in the bottom and more attenuated mids when compared to the Glock, although for a modern R&B type tone the UL502 just kills. Owned an IAMP for a short time and I'd agree with Ken noise issues always seem to come up as an issue...

Good luck you seem destined to own the GLOCK!
 
#20
peterpalmieri said:
I am a Glock HR owner and use it mostly with a Sadowsky 410 cab which is fairly similar to the AE410. I couldn''t be happier with this combination. I don't know if I'd use the words transparent or flat because that can spark all kinds of debates but I do know that I love the sound and run the amp with the EQ bypassed 90% of the time.
Click to expand...

It seems to be a Glock user habit. I almost never use the Soul eq.
But when I need to, it is fantastic.
;)
 

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