Sticky suggestion regarding Sub bass rigs. ModeratorsThoughts?

Just thought it would be a good Idea, to get a sticky in the begining of the amps section that outlines, the realities of:

Sub Bass Response:

What it takes to have a system/rig that is capable of it. The available options.

Is it worth it. Logistical problems with having, obtaining, achieving it.

Psychoaccoustics:

Why and how fundamental is implied through Harmonics.

Characteristics of Electric Bass Frequency Response:

Why the Fundamental pitch of Open Strings is picked up less than its overtones on electromagnetic pickups. Why fundamental is stronger as you ascend the neck.

Ways to boost fundamental strength in stringed electric instruments.

I know so many people don't really understand, some of this stuff and make assumptions about what is really happening.

It would be nice if we could just say "Hey read the Sticky". This topic has been beaten to death.

Anyone want to work on a draft?

Really no one interested in starting this thread of disillusionment?

JAUQO III-X said:

I have none of the problems you have listed.

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We've um discussed this before Jauqo. It doesn't make the information irrelivant.

That's why I stressed the importance of Psycho Acoustics, and why a true Sub bass rig isn't necessary, to appreciate the sound of a low tuned instrument.

But trust me when I say if you had true high output fundamental on your low C#, you would feel a little like you were getting off of a boat or a roller coaster after playing in front of it for a while. Its like needing to regain your land legs. Sub Bass is truly that powerful.

Its fine to say, your happy with what your getting from your bass and rig. But there are a lot of Posters posting the same questions over and over again, asking What rigs go this low... How do I make a rig that plays or handles 2O something Hz.

Now what would be helpful Jauqo, is if you said, hey you don't really need a rig that goes that low because your brain will help fill in some of that low bass, even though the speaker and/or bass doesn't produce it at significantly strong levels.

But making fanatical blind faith statements is not constructive, especially when faced with all of the objective evidence you need to make a more accurate assesment of what you are experiencing.

Fine your brain tells you you are hearing 20 some odd Hz. That's all that matters to you. That's good information for other players, and leave it at that.

You can leave the details of how and why to the people here on this board that actually design speakers, and understand some of the basic principals, of electro/acoustic systems, and physics.

Antone-

JimmyM said:

I don't know, Spode...I have very little interest in sub bass and I don't know many bassists who are. Plus I don't hear what you're talking about with open strings losing harmonic content. They sound a little different than closed strings, but not that much different.

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That's fine, you are not one of the posters that is interested. But you have seen them right? Why not have a sticky, and point them to it. That way no further discussion on the topic becomes necessary.

No the open string is mostly harmonic content the pickup is in a less than ideal place to pickup fundamental pitch.


Antone-

lemur821 said:

Do we have to say the electric bass "lacks" fundamental on open strings? A P-position or neck position pickup is going to give most people all the fundamental they could want or handle. Not a lack, in my book.

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I will refer you to this demonstration applet.
http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.html

Not saying lack of fundamental on open strings is good or bad.

It is what it is.

I was totally unaware of this until 3 years ago.

Doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing my bass as is, but I also Like messing with Sub Bass. Its good to know what your up against, if you want to try and recreate it through a stringed electric bass.

Its easier to do with a synth.

Antone-

Jefenator said:

A local tech saw me playing once and commented on my tone, which was nice but somewhat lacking in lows.

I asked what might be done to improve that. To accurately cover 30 Hz, he got in to this massive scenario involving multiple JBL drivers, giant custom-built cabs and thousands upon thousands of watts, which at the time would have cost thousands and thousands of dollars and weighed hundreds and hundreds of pounds. No mention of the panel van I would also be needing. Not exactly the solution I was seeking for my bar gigs.

(This guy is a bit like that. Great amp tech but when he runs sound, there's hideous howling feedback, you can't discern anything, but the competently-adjusted crossover points make the pink noise looks good on a spectrum analyzer. )

Long story short: I got a 2x12 cab, the low B sounds great - problem solved. (It seems I am still unable to trigger involuntary bowel release on the dance floor but that's not really one of my tone goals. )

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Hence my point about practicality of Sub Bass rigs and...

...Is it worth it!

A good High output 30Hz rig would need to be quite substantial. In size and power. Though I don't think there are any JBL drivers I'd recommend for that job.

That is the reality of the topic that I am trying to stress.

Antone-

JAUQO III-X said:

It's not a blind faith statement when I live it every day.

My experiences and own personal research tells me other wise.

Until you have walked in my shoes in regards to what my research have gotten me you really have nothing to say

Do you know how many none believers I have come across until they hear with their own ears?

It's really not enough bass players interested in going lower than the open low B string. So a sticky would not be warranted.

Do a poll and see what it gets you.

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Then please enlighten me and site/document your research for the rest of us to learn from. I have done a side by side comparison of your recording with one of mine, proving the Lack of fundamental in your recording, and the presence of Fundamental in mine.

That said your's sounds lower. Why because you tuned your instrument lower which the resulting harmonics paint the Image of the fundamental. If I tuned and played that low Mine would sound as low also.

This is a great example of psychoacoustics at work.

The True fundamental would have to be orders of Magnitude louder than the harmonics to be apparent. (Look up equal loudness curves). In my recording the 30Hz tone is even with the 2nd Harmonic 60Hz, so for the fundamental to seem even equally loud it would have to be close to 12dB louder thats 16 x the power. At 23Hz things look even worse.

You can assert all you want that your 4X10 cabinet does a great job at reproducing 23Hz. But without producing the evidence I will remain unconvinced.

Darkstrike said:

I wouldn't want it, just because of the name of the site, TalkBass, the talk part actually implies that we do want discussion.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, this is TalkBass, not DataBass.

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So you are saying the AMPS FAQ sticky (Now with Ohms) doesn't belong here.

There appears to be a good Data Base on techniques in the Technique section.

Discussing the limitations of speakers, falls into a more technical realm than subjective. Weather a speaker can reproduce Sub Bass is not a philosophical discussion. There are some pretty well established rules of mechanics. And seem appropriate for a FAQ.

There is much more merit to free discussion about why or why not to attempt implementing such systems for a live Bass Rig. Who's done it why they did it. What their impressions of it were.

I think it would be more useful to have an established FAQ to help mitigate some of the uneducated, outlandish, and bizzar assertions made about Bass Reproduction.

JAUQO III-X said:

I have no interest because I don't think the shared info would be appreciated. Plus you seem to have all the answers anyway.

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I would be. I've been dealing with sub bass for several years now. What is the evidence that lead to your great epiphanies. Do you kick it with a guy named John Smith.

JAUQO III-X said:

Think about what you wrote here.

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I did. Did you. You don't seem to even acknowledge psychoacoustics in any of these posts.

JAUQO III-X said:

Well you will forever be unconvinced

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Yes I will, you don't provide any evidence that you even have a minimal understanding of speaker technology.

That's all that matters when it comes to your performance that's fine Jauqo, how a musician communicates and expresses their soul through their playing is much more important than the specs of a speaker I agree. I know I have a distinctive way of playing guitar that sounds different from others.

I wouldn't expect an audience member to care about hearing the fundamental. Its not even what the discussion is about. Its about realistic expectations, and helping people make an informed decision. A reality check if you like.

Weather or not you care about it is your own choice.

Creating ones sound may or may not have anything to do with how Low a speaker or bass really goes. Depends on the musician, and what they are trying to achieve.

For me part is trying to attain a sound and sensation that I enjoy and applying it to my craft and art, and part is trying to explore things that are yet unknown or un-experienced to me. So I can make my own evaluation.

Jauqo: "It would be best for you to put my finds to a rest and dispell them if you will/can."

I don't even know what your finds are, so dispelling or putting them to rest isn't possible since they don't appear to exist, outside of your head.

My playing is not exactly up to par at the moment, but my speaker builds are reality they are not mearly Talk.