• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Experimental Basses (Has anyone done this)

While engaging in arguments about what it takes to have 17Hz/23Hz/30Hz bass rig. It started becoming very apparent that many people don't understand that an electric Bass Guitar, Doesn't have much open string fundamental.

I've heard many people say (I believe erroneously) that the reason is because the scale of the instrument (I think that has more to do with acoustic bass (body).

It would appear that the actual open string fundamental LF response is directly related to the position of the pickup. The tuning of the string is directly related to string length, String Mass and String tension.

If you take a look at this pickup placement response calculator:

http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.html

You can scale and tune an instrument to just about anything you want.

If you play with the pickup placement the best fundamental response for an open string appears to be between the Nut and the Bridge. If you look at standard pickup positions, it becomes apparent that basically the action of fretting is effectively changing the position of your Nut. The higher note wise you fret, the pickup/nut/bridge relationship changes to a more ideal position up to a point.

So inherently the standard electric pickup stringed instrument configuration makes it non ideal for low fret fundamental response.

I had an Idea for an experimental Extended LF response Electric Bass.

Since many Metal and Rock players drop tune the low string and use it much like a drone, and I personally don't like playing to high up on my low A string.

Why not build a Bass that has a specialized pickup for the low B and perhaps E string strategicly placed on the neck, and eliminate the frets a few above and all bellow the pickup.

Keep the fret board in place for the higher strings.

Has this been done?

I have a feeling this would be the best compromise for attaining true fundamental response from an electric pickup system.

I did see some statement on the optical pickup system web site, that says "You've never heard fundamental like this" I think its impossible to attain good fundamental with the optical system being so close to the bridge saddles. Unless they have an EQ curve built into the circuitry.

Anyhow any thoughts guys???
 
Relax - it's only been an hour and a half!

I think the main issue for me would be whether it would make a significant difference, especially when mixed in with the rest of a band. Will anyone really notice? I'm all for innovation, mind you. I'm just thinking in terms of cost vs. benefit.
 
I have a thought: Wait more than an hour & 40 minutes before clogging up the bandwidth w/the same question. :)

I have to leave soon.

Though you have a point. (Not so sure how I would be compromising bandwidth of the server, by trying to start a discussion that is a little more interesting than "what discontinued finish your bass has".)

How many people here actually scour the board for past postings?

Since the topic I posted is a little more unusual, I was hoping it wouldn't get lost in the sea of more common posts.

And (unfortunately) I think my post may confuse, the average poster, and only a small percentage of the forum members would take interest.

So I'd like to keep this in alive in the forefront.

If thats somehow inappropriate or against forum policies I apologize.

Antone-
 
Relax - it's only been an hour and a half!

I think the main issue for me would be whether it would make a significant difference, especially when mixed in with the rest of a band. Will anyone really notice? I'm all for innovation, mind you. I'm just thinking in terms of cost vs. benefit.

Well thats why it falls under the category of "Experimental".

Practicality is another matter. The type of Bass rig required to reproduce the fundamental would be Large to say the least.
 
How about experimenting with piezo pickups and skipping the electro/magnetic pickups all together?

Because the Piezo pickups are not in a useful place to pickup fundamental.

It will pickup a lot of overtones at the bridge, and body vibration which isn't huge for solid body instruments. As far as open string fundamental, it is normally placed where it senses minimum vibration change from the string.

For acoustic upright bass you are picking up bridge and body vibration.
 
The position of the piezo pickups could be the experimental part.

Rob Allens and Turners seem to work with the piezos where they are.

The piezo would have to be in the neck but the neck isn't supposed to vibrate much. Its supposed to be ridged and not absorb energy.

I don't see the piezo being useful in picking up open string vibration fundamental, proportional to its harmonics.

I could be wrong but you will have to steer me to information that would disprove my empiricaly arrived at conclusion.
 
The piezo would have to be in the neck but the neck isn't supposed to vibrate much. Its supposed to be ridged and not absorb energy.

I don't see the piezo being useful in picking up open string vibration fundamental, proportional to its harmonics.

I could be wrong but you will have to steer me to information that would disprove my empiricaly arrived at conclusion.

I already mentioned two manufacturers who are very successful at using piezos...why not give them a call and ask them?
 
I already mentioned two manufacturers who are very successful at using piezos...why not give them a call and ask them?

The instruments give no claim of having strong fundamental. Most of the talk is about tone.

Regardless, the Body is to small to be resonant at even 40Hz. Even Double Bass is to small to reproduce its fundamental. There where giant Double Basses built in the 60's or 70's to try and recreate the instruments true fundamental.

And Again the Piezo is in the bridge. That is about the worst place for it to be to pickup string fundamental. Piezos opperate differently from electrmagnetic pickps.

Piezos convert Mechanical Vibrations into electricity.

Electromagetic pickups pickup the electro magnetic energy generated from the mechanical vibration of strings with Ferrous meterials in them.

The Strings are like the primary of a transformer, the pickup is like the high ratio secondary of a transformer multiplying the voltage radiated from the strings.

The electromagnetic pickup only needs to be in proximity to the strings (It could be floating in the air totally detached from the bass to work).

The Piezo has to be placed where it will get the best transfer of mechanical energy. Which is someplace on a resonant body of an instrument, often the bridge is used because if it was in a spot that only picked up body vibration it would sound muddy and dark, putting it a the bridge gets body vibration and string harmonics.

If It were to pickup 30Hz the instrument would have to be HUGE.
 
What about using a Steinberger style setup? Well, that would still put the scale at the same, and therefore the pickup placement relative.

Back in the day, Ibanez made the Artist series of guitars (they would later become the basis for the Iceman, for those that care), and one model had a sliding pickup. That might help out a bit.

Also have you tried an offset neck pickup, or would that make any difference?

And on the note of piezos, maybe try using them in conjuntion with one of the above mentioned ideas?

I'll run the idea by my father, we're both into "Experimental" luthier work (we've not made anything yet, but ONE day.)

I hope some of my thoughs help.
 
The instruments give no claim of having strong fundamental. Most of the talk is about tone.

Regardless, the Body is to small to be resonant at even 40Hz. Even Double Bass is to small to reproduce its fundamental. There where giant Double Basses built in the 60's or 70's to try and recreate the instruments true fundamental.

And Again the Piezo is in the bridge. That is about the worst place for it to be to pickup string fundamental. Piezos opperate differently from electrmagnetic pickps.

Piezos convert Mechanical Vibrations into electricity.

Electromagetic pickups pickup the electro magnetic energy generated from the mechanical vibration of strings with Ferrous meterials in them.

The Strings are like the primary of a transformer, the pickup is like the high ratio secondary of a transformer multiplying the voltage radiated from the strings.

The electromagnetic pickup only needs to be in proximity to the strings (It could be floating in the air totally detached from the bass to work).

The Piezo has to be placed where it will get the best transfer of mechanical energy. Which is someplace on a resonant body of an instrument, often the bridge is used because if it was in a spot that only picked up body vibration it would sound muddy and dark, putting it a the bridge gets body vibration and string harmonics.

If It were to pickup 30Hz the instrument would have to be HUGE.

LOL, I guess you really don't like piezos.