Experimental Basses (Has anyone done this)

[spode master]

If it helps, Alembic recommends neck-thru with ebony lamination to bump the fundalmental.

My Alembic does seem to have a bit more fundamental than my Ibanez BTB

 

[Sirius]

Here's what my father and I have come up with:
Rather than placing pickups in the neck, extend the body 8-9 inches and then you could place the pickup near the neck, and it would be in the middle of the scale. It would be a MUCH longer scale than standard, but you'd be getting your sound, ja?

Failing that idea, recessing pickups in the neck, running the wires for them in a channel alongside the truss.

I had another thought though. What would happen if you were to replace the standard alnico mags in the pickups with neodymium magnets? Those are much stronger, and may cause unwanted issues (i.e. string sticking to the polepiece, VERY LOUD noise), since as far as I know, nothing like this has been done. My theory is that since they pick up on much more than alnico mags, that they may, in a standard position, pick up the frequencey you are looking for.

EDIT: Neo mags are VERY powerful. They could also build up an electircal charge (in a pickup application) that could shock/electricute you, or blow your guitar/bass/amps/effects. Since this has never been tried, EXTREME CAUTION should be excercised.

This is the best we've come up with, since we're not really sure of all the ins and outs of exactly why you are wanting to do what you are, and for that matter, dont really know enough about this "fundamental" of which you speak.

I hope that I have helped in some way, either by ruling out ideas, or by getting it right on!

Peace out,
A.J.

 

[ehque]

Hrmmm? You make neodymium pickups sound so dangerous. They certainly have been used in pickups before, and i have never seen a warning like that. Q-tuners, for example, are neodymium.

 

[peakdesign]

Seriously, is there an objective here you can share? Assuming you're happy with your speaker situation, and the objective is to be able to play say a 6 stringed instrument and get it to emit more (or all) fundamental of its played notes, here's what I propose.

Take a MIDI guitar or bass controller, I happen to have a 6 string Yamaha G10, that will do, but there are many others. Since you're not a coder, get a program like Reaktor 5 by Native Instruments. Read the manual. Drag and drop a few elements on screen to create a synth that emits a pure sine wave in response to incoming MIDI notes, at whatever tuning you like, say tuning in a BEADGC pattern, making the bottom string on the guitar controller trigger the "natural" low B, or 30 Hz or 13 Hz or whatever you want.

You can even add any compensation curves for any element in the chain by arithmetic or by look-up tables, Reaktor is a gem of a synth-builder that should appeal to you. You can also add whatever harmonics you want in whatever proportion, in short you have complete control, yet you are fingering/fretting on the 4 or 6 string controller. You fret/pluck the notes, you hear the notes, 99% pure fundamentals if you wish. I submit that a laptop, a MIDI controller and some software constitute just some relatively inexpensive electronics, part of the setup to do the job, analogous to and only slightly different from the EQ filters and amplifiers you are now using. Problem solved elegantly and effectively.

Now, if you insist on generating the waveforms with complex wound strings, fretted furniture and magnetic pickups that are, as you pointed out, eminently unsuited to the task, you're beating your head against a wall for no clear reason, hence back to my original question about the objective.

 

[spode master]

Now, if you insist on generating the waveforms with complex wound strings, fretted furniture and magnetic pickups that are, as you pointed out, eminently unsuited to the task, you're beating your head against a wall for no clear reason, hence back to my original question about the objective.

I like to think of solid body guitars as glorified cutting boards myself. The pickups not the problem, its the placement.

I do know a little about coding but that was in relation to editing tills Java script.

A synth controller would be cool I don't know much about them, but I personally prefer the nord modular, for Virtual analog synthesis. I actually was planning on having my rig set up so I could play some fun low bass with my left hand and maybe tap, with the right.

The object(ive) (I don't think there can be a subjective until its actually been realized and experienced) of this experimental instrument would be to see how useful/expressive/musical having a bass that delivers a more powerful fundamental, into a true subwoofer, or as a recorded instrument.

Another Idea would be to use a sub harmonic generator.

It doesn't seem an unreasonable idea to ditch the higher frets on the 5 string low B. I almost never go above the 12. Another thought is to only have the bridge with mid neck pickup extend to the low string(s) for more overtones. Or use piezo bridge.

When I get a chance I will rig a clamp with a pickup to my old bass for a subjective/objective evaluation.

Antone-

 

[spode master]

Here's what my father and I have come up with:
Rather than placing pickups in the neck, extend the body 8-9 inches and then you could place the pickup near the neck, and it would be in the middle of the scale. It would be a MUCH longer scale than standard, but you'd be getting your sound, ja?

Failing that idea, recessing pickups in the neck, running the wires for them in a channel alongside the truss.

I had another thought though. What would happen if you were to replace the standard alnico mags in the pickups with neodymium magnets? Those are much stronger, and may cause unwanted issues (i.e. string sticking to the polepiece, VERY LOUD noise), since as far as I know, nothing like this has been done. My theory is that since they pick up on much more than alnico mags, that they may, in a standard position, pick up the frequencey you are looking for.

EDIT: Neo mags are VERY powerful. They could also build up an electircal charge (in a pickup application) that could shock/electricute you, or blow your guitar/bass/amps/effects. Since this has never been tried, EXTREME CAUTION should be excercised.

This is the best we've come up with, since we're not really sure of all the ins and outs of exactly why you are wanting to do what you are, and for that matter, dont really know enough about this "fundamental" of which you speak.

I hope that I have helped in some way, either by ruling out ideas, or by getting it right on!

Peace out,
A.J.

Cool Idea/sounds heavy, but I do see a lot of new basses without the strap horn. So could still have high strings frets and a deep cut on the other side.

Fundamental is quite simply, the primary pitch/note/vibration (pereodic event) generated by the string.

Antone

 

[Passinwind]

The easiest way I can think of to measure the output is use a decent FFT (Spectrum analizer). Put it on hold Data and pluck a string.

I have noticed fundamental decay much quicker than 2nd harmonic also. But the Fundamental is never as great as the 2nd, until I applied EQ.

Just some food for thought Tone. Here's a waterfall spectrum analysis (a standard feature in Wavelab BTW) of my BSX 4 string EUB plucked on a stopped note on the E string, a few notes up from open E. The recording was done with my DIY tube line driver straight to soundcard, with the standard (minimal) EQ settings that I always use on this bass.

Link Removed

FWIW, this bass uses four individual piezo elements just below the saddles. I've never measured the inherent EQ curve of the onboard preamp, but as you've inferred it's probably pretty substantial.

 

[spode master]

Just some food for thought Tone. Here's a waterfall spectrum analysis (a standard feature in Wavelab BTW) of my BSX 4 string EUB plucked on a stopped note on the E string, a few notes up from open E. The recording was done with my DIY tube line driver straight to soundcard, with the standard (minimal) EQ settings that I always use on this bass.

Link Removed

FWIW, this bass uses four individual piezo elements just below the saddles. I've never measured the inherent EQ curve of the onboard preamp, but as you've inferred it's probably pretty substantial.

Thats a pretty substantial, fundamental. I guess BSX are the only people to you can ask about the Pre EQ, without pulling the thing apart. Since thats a semi hollow body I'm sure that help our sustain too.

That thing must have quite a voice.

I mixed a small festival this weekend with 8 Servodrive BT7's this weekend.

Only 1 5 string player the whole weekend. It made my night to give that Low B the Sub Support it deserved.

I have an old copy of Spectra lab to play with, for testing.

Whats your standard EQ?

Antone-

 

[Passinwind]

Thats a pretty substantial, fundamental. I guess BSX are the only people to you can ask about the Pre EQ, without pulling the thing apart. Since thats a semi hollow body I'm sure that help our sustain too.

That thing must have quite a voice.

Whats your standard EQ?

Maybe 3-4dB boost on low and mids, flat on the treble. Not sure what the frequency centers are. The low and mid bands are both seemingly pretty low though! It's a proprietary Bartolini preamp spec'd specifically for this bass. My BSX is one of Dino's very first ones, and the newer ones sound pretty different to my ears. Mine is a stick with a small chamber, not the Allegro with the f-holes and much bigger hollow section.

Sooner or later I'm bound to do some testing on the onboard preamp -- it's about the only thing I own that I haven't pulled apart yet!

Anyhow, good luck on your mission. Looks like you've already done a lot of homework.

 

[NWB]

This seems an odd idea to me, but since a magnetic pickup works by having the string vibrate through its magnetic field; rather than physically moving the pickup itself perhaps the magnetic field itself could be shifted (rotated) more towards the middle of the instrument.

I'm rather tired and not thinking entirely clearly, but it occurred to me that if you rotated the pickup assembly that may shift the magnetic field to a position to better capture the center of the string vibration. Or, just building a pickup with the magnetic field emanating out at an angle towards the center of the string. This idea is probably whacked, but in my sleep-deprived state it somehow makes some sense.

 

[spode master]

If you were able to steer the magnetic field towards the center of the string and be blind to the string directly above it. I think that you would be picking up a proportionally weaker signal since the distance of the string is significantly further than it would be if it was just picking up the string directly above it.

Antone-

 

[newbold]

As far as 'picking up fundamental' it doesn't matter so much where the pickup is to actually pick up the fundamental, but the middle of the string vibrates with more amplitude, giving a bigger, fatter low end.

To get big low notes you need long strings. While fat strings can bring a big fat tone, the length/diameter ratio of a thinner string is more positive for getting the Fundamental frequency.

Why not try this:

Turn down your low mids and turn up your low bass. If anything's there you'll give it more space in the sonic spectrum to get around its harmonics.

It also takes more energy to create low frequencies, and this is another reason it is hard to get true fundamentals from a stringed instrument.

Also, try standing back from your amp. It takes room for a big low wave to propagate properly.

The Piezo unit wouldn't have to be huge to pick up fendamental...it would have to be sensitive and close to the string for real definition.

If it were in the body of the instrument it might pick up the tone better but would be muddy.

Have fun building wacky basses with pickups al over the neck.

In time you might find that you'll enjoy making better instruments and having a cleaner, stronger signal path.

IMO the real fundamental killer is the harmonics that drown them out.

Maybe that's the real scoop for this story.

 

[newbold]

Those are some decent fundamentals...upright?

 

[Passinwind]

Those are some decent fundamentals...upright?

BSX model 2000 electric upright.

Link Removed

 

[spode master]

As far as 'picking up fundamental' it doesn't matter so much where the pickup is to actually pick up the fundamental, but the middle of the string vibrates with more amplitude, giving a bigger, fatter low end.

I think for the most part yes there will be fundamental present, except a solid body instrument will be close to none at the bridge and nut (if the body was perfectly damped), and the center will have the strongest.

To get big low notes you need long strings. While fat strings can bring a big fat tone, the length/diameter ratio of a thinner string is more positive for getting the Fundamental frequency.

While I do see the possibility for a longer string to have an even greater motion potential which could translate into a larger overall possible signal. Proportionally a shorter scale should have the same amount of fundamental at the 1/4 wave center of the string, but less potential amplitude of the longer string? Length/Diameter(mass?) relation to tension.

Why not try this:

Turn down your low mids and turn up your low bass. If anything's there you'll give it more space in the sonic spectrum to get around its harmonics.

I do, I do. I have my custom, single integrator bass EQ for my alembic, fairly effective, but I need to change the Z I think its changing the Q of my Alembics Low Pass Filters. I'm not to
fond of my Ibanez BTB Bartolini low boost, when I boost it to get some nice bottom it adds too much mid bass and things get a little mucky higher up. I can sort of take care of it with the sweepable mid. I would like to explore that Low shelf circuit and push it lower. so it doesn't effect much above 70Hz or so.

It also takes more energy to create low frequencies, and this is another reason it is hard to get true fundamentals from a stringed instrument.

Not if you've got an optimal bass horn, but I'm not willing to actually carry something like that for a bass rig. Having enough headroom in a smallish rig to have enough head room for equal loudness at moderate live levels does take a bit of juice.

Also, try standing back from your amp. It takes room for a big low wave to propagate properly.

I think that has been established as a myth, if anything standing less that 1/4 wave from the source would be best, but that changes with frequency.

I think that myth comes from that fact that really low bass has huge problems with obvious room nodes. You can have really bad dead spots walk a few feet and step into a standing wave. I hypothesis that people mis-interperate this as wave development.

for RF transmission is most effective if the transmission line is less than 1/10th of a wavelength. 1/2 wave Di pole is a resonant circuit. Or 1/4 with a ground plane. Indoors you start having these resonant conditions with Audio, thats why bass reproduction inside is problematic.

In free space energy is radiated (waves propagated) until it encounters an obsticle that either reflects, or absorbs it.

The Piezo unit wouldn't have to be huge to pick up fendamental...it would have to be sensitive and close to the string for real definition.

For a solid body from what I've seen in systems like Light wave pickups, they use piezos for the treble response. I think the EQ would have to be quite extreme on a solid body for fundamental.

On a more resonant bridge like Passin's electric upright, I think the bridge will resonate more, and less EQ will be needed.

If it were in the body of the instrument it might pick up the tone better but would be muddy.

Have fun building wacky basses with pickups al over the neck.

He he. I think I'm just going to rig a clamp like I said and play around see what things sound like. But if I like It I'll post my findings here for everyone.

In time you might find that you'll enjoy making better instruments and having a cleaner, stronger signal path.

IMO the real fundamental killer is the harmonics that drown them out.


Maybe that's the real scoop for this story.

I agree since your hearing is much more sensitive even 60Hz Vs 30Hz I think you need 10-20+dB of boost, for it to have a real impression. But when you got it!!! It freakin' kicks butt!

 

[winston]

IMO the real fundamental killer is the harmonics that drown them out.

Maybe that's the real scoop for this story.

I'm surprised that no one's suggested using flatwounds--the quickest route to fuller fundamental/fewer harmonics. I'm guessing that Passinwind's BSX is strung with flats, which would contribute to the bottom-heavy harmonic spectrum.

 

[spode master]

I'm surprised that no one's suggested using flatwounds--the quickest route to fuller fundamental/fewer harmonics. I'm guessing that Passinwind's BSX is strung with flats, which would contribute to the bottom-heavy harmonic spectrum.

I doubt flat wounds will reduce 2nd harmonic much if at all, the tend to have less higher order overtones

 

[spode master]

BSX model 2000 electric upright.

Link Removed

That thing looks like fun.

Do you play pitz mostly? do you bow as well?

 

[Passinwind]

That thing looks like fun.

Do you play pitz mostly? do you bow as well?

The newer ones work great with a bow, but this one's a little widgy. When I play hip hop or my brand of psycho-jazz-fusion I do the occasional effects freakout with the bow, but the tonal balance is too far off string to string to really work for legitimate solos in the old school jazz thing that I do most of the time these days.

 

[spode master]

Just read some more interesting stuff on the Till web site about electromagnetic pickups.

Its interesting to note that the pickups generate voltage proportional to displacement, and velocity.

Because the higher frequencies have a higher velocity, the resulting signal strength is stronger, but because displacement of the string goes down as the frequency goes up, the effects of the increased velocity even out the difference between high and low frequency response.

But optical pickups only read string displacement. So there will be a slant toward the bass response. So perhaps the Light wave system does have a benefit for low bass response. That would also explain why they use peizos to restore High frequency content.

Also I always wondered what the benefit of Alembics small aperature series II pickups are, playing with Tills pickup simulator, you can change the width of the pickup. It really demonstrates how the width of the pickup effects its ability to pick up higher frequencies. This makes me wonder about how wide the average pickups aperature is.