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what is in front of/behind the beat?
- Thread starter brothertupelo
- Start date
bongomania
Commercial User
The beat is a steady time, like a metronome. In front of the beat is playing so the start of your note begins just before the moment of the beat, and behind the beat means your note begins just after the moment of the beat.
More importantly, being able to use this to change the feel of a song is important.
Playing in front of the beat will tend to push the song along and feel as if it's driving - too far in front and it feels like you're rushing the song, even if the song is not actually speeding up.
Playing behind the beat is exactly the opposite and feels as if the song is more cruisey and laid back. Too far back and it feels as if the song is dragging.
Playing in front of the beat will tend to push the song along and feel as if it's driving - too far in front and it feels like you're rushing the song, even if the song is not actually speeding up.
Playing behind the beat is exactly the opposite and feels as if the song is more cruisey and laid back. Too far back and it feels as if the song is dragging.
so either way would sort of like playing a flam? we're not talking about grace notes or anticipation notes, are we?
No, it's much more subtle than that. Ever heard someone who sounds like they've slowed the tempo of a song without ACTUALLY slowing the tempo down? That's behind the beat. The Funky Meters are a good example of this. So is the piano solo on Donald Fagen's version of "Ruby Baby".
Thats more so the "and of".
I think what the TS is asking is what genre?
for behind and lazy think swing music, for ahead and more rushed think latin and for straight and right out there think funk... thats what I think at least IMO.
Incrementally off the center of the straight count of the beat. Very subtle. Freddie Washington is very good at it. He adds a kind of "swagger" to the mix, especially on Fagen's "Morph the cat". Something you really have to hear to get a good sense of.
Josh
Josh
+1. This is it, nothing more to it. Play at the same tempo, but slightly "in front of" or "behind" where the beat is. It is not the same as rushing or dragging.
It's good to listen to some examples.
Some of my favorite examples of behind the beat are from guys like Me'shell Ndgeocello, Aston "Family Man" Barrett, George Porter Jr, and Pino Palladino.
Check out "Send It On" and really, any of "Voodoo" by D'Angelo. Goodness, that is far behind the beat. Try playing along with it and you'll be amazed.
Anything by Bob Marley and the Wailers, but tunes like "Slave Driver" and "Three Little Birds" to me really show at as well. The notes also have such a big swell and it really adds to heaviness and feel of being behind.
For Me'shell, "Bittersweet", "Hot Night, and "God, Fear, and Money."
ANYTHING by the Meters. Check out "Jungle Man", "Cissy Strut", and "Just Kissed My Baby."
For playing on top of the beat, most jazz tunes at 250 bpms or more tend have that implemented. "Seven Steps to Heaven" by Miles Davis, with Ron Carter on bass is a good example. In rock, my personal favorite is John Entwistle. He really pushes in such an amazing way. "The Real Me" is really kicking.
A lot of funk guys play behind, but some play pretty on top. I think of Verdine White and Stuart Zender. Their time is nearly perfect, but if you listen, there's a little more urgency than some of those former examples. "Sing a Song" and "September by Earth Wind and Fire.
Also, check out Jerry Jemmott's wicked bass line on "Memphis Soul Stew" by King Curtis Live at the Fillmore, with Bernard Purdie. It's really grooving, but in my opinion slightly on top of the beat when they're featured at 8 bars a piece.
Some of my favorite examples of behind the beat are from guys like Me'shell Ndgeocello, Aston "Family Man" Barrett, George Porter Jr, and Pino Palladino.
Check out "Send It On" and really, any of "Voodoo" by D'Angelo. Goodness, that is far behind the beat. Try playing along with it and you'll be amazed.
Anything by Bob Marley and the Wailers, but tunes like "Slave Driver" and "Three Little Birds" to me really show at as well. The notes also have such a big swell and it really adds to heaviness and feel of being behind.
For Me'shell, "Bittersweet", "Hot Night, and "God, Fear, and Money."
ANYTHING by the Meters. Check out "Jungle Man", "Cissy Strut", and "Just Kissed My Baby."
For playing on top of the beat, most jazz tunes at 250 bpms or more tend have that implemented. "Seven Steps to Heaven" by Miles Davis, with Ron Carter on bass is a good example. In rock, my personal favorite is John Entwistle. He really pushes in such an amazing way. "The Real Me" is really kicking.
A lot of funk guys play behind, but some play pretty on top. I think of Verdine White and Stuart Zender. Their time is nearly perfect, but if you listen, there's a little more urgency than some of those former examples. "Sing a Song" and "September by Earth Wind and Fire.
Also, check out Jerry Jemmott's wicked bass line on "Memphis Soul Stew" by King Curtis Live at the Fillmore, with Bernard Purdie. It's really grooving, but in my opinion slightly on top of the beat when they're featured at 8 bars a piece.
One of my favorite examples of playing "on top of the beat" is Spiral Staircase's "I Love You More Today Than Yesterday":
The bass player is Carol Kaye and the drummer is the late, great John Guerin. I wouldn't argue with anyone who said Carol was sometimes a little ahead of the beat; but John Guerin's time was so good, he hardly needed to be pushed.
There are many other cool things in this recording including John's backbeats around Carol's straight quarter notes, the clinic Carol puts on in how to use octaves when walking and how unfailingly together they are on every beat.
They have agreed where the one is!!
I still grin EVERY time I hear it.
Bluesy Soul
The bass player is Carol Kaye and the drummer is the late, great John Guerin. I wouldn't argue with anyone who said Carol was sometimes a little ahead of the beat; but John Guerin's time was so good, he hardly needed to be pushed.
There are many other cool things in this recording including John's backbeats around Carol's straight quarter notes, the clinic Carol puts on in how to use octaves when walking and how unfailingly together they are on every beat.
They have agreed where the one is!!
I still grin EVERY time I hear it.
Bluesy Soul
Just the other day I heard two textbook examples:
ZZ Top-'Waitin' For The Bus'-All the boys are really back pedalin' on this, it is so behind the beat it's almost moving in reverse.
The Vaughan Brothers-'Hard to Be' -This track is just dead center on the beat, Stevie's solo included. So solid it'll bring a tear to your eye.
ZZ Top-'Waitin' For The Bus'-All the boys are really back pedalin' on this, it is so behind the beat it's almost moving in reverse.
The Vaughan Brothers-'Hard to Be' -This track is just dead center on the beat, Stevie's solo included. So solid it'll bring a tear to your eye.
Though watch it really pick up during the choruses and outros. Stewart Copeland is really known to push the beat hard. The outro to Driven to Tears is another good example for him being on top. Generally the Police's stuff tends be on top of the beat.
My music teacher, who was a drummer, taught me to visualize "pushing", "pulling" or being "right on" the beat as
B'EAT = push or anticipate or drive
BE'AT = right on time
BEA'T = pull or lay back
Not the same as dragging or rushing.
OK you guys -- NO drummer jokes!
B'EAT = push or anticipate or drive
BE'AT = right on time
BEA'T = pull or lay back
Not the same as dragging or rushing.
OK you guys -- NO drummer jokes!
We call playing behind the beat "play black", and ahead "play white". If you want real behind the beat, get Sam & Dave's earlier works like "I thank you", my fave Bill Withers' "When I'm Kissing My Love", or Marvin Gaye's "how sweet it is" (and, BTW note how the drummer drags the tempo way down during the tune). I watched a drummer friend get so disgusted at his rushing bass player that he stood up at the end of a tune handed him 2 bucks and sat down. The bass player asked "what's this for?" The drummer replied "for winning. You finished the tune before everybody else." I replaced the bass player
Playing ahead of the beat is a rock thing, also known as rushing. If you want to groove, do. not. rush. learn how to swing, and learn the types of swing- sixteenth, dotted eight, and triplet..
Here's a good groove exercise or two:
This one reveals how you feel the music and is very simple: just tap you foot and clap your hands in quarter notes at the same time. When you can do this clap and tap at the same instant, for 5 minutes then you are getting the idea where the groove is. The next is a bear: get a metronome and just play quarter notes- one to a click. Make sure you are playing right on the click. When you can do that, then play ahead of the click. Should be easy enough, but then, play behind the click. Now learn how to play beat four behind the beat. Notice how this relaxes your playing?
Learn how to push and pull, but keep an ear one the drummer. if he is not with you, no matter what kind of music, it will be a big mess. Lock with him, and talk about when to get ahead a little and when to get behind a little. Punk, Metal, Country, Calssical, Funk, folk, etc. you have to know how to do this. I did a ton of sessions with click tracks, but the best tracks have give in them- little things like leaning into the 2 measures before the bridge then dropping back a little coming out.
Playing ahead of the beat is a rock thing, also known as rushing. If you want to groove, do. not. rush. learn how to swing, and learn the types of swing- sixteenth, dotted eight, and triplet..
Here's a good groove exercise or two:
This one reveals how you feel the music and is very simple: just tap you foot and clap your hands in quarter notes at the same time. When you can do this clap and tap at the same instant, for 5 minutes then you are getting the idea where the groove is. The next is a bear: get a metronome and just play quarter notes- one to a click. Make sure you are playing right on the click. When you can do that, then play ahead of the click. Should be easy enough, but then, play behind the click. Now learn how to play beat four behind the beat. Notice how this relaxes your playing?
Learn how to push and pull, but keep an ear one the drummer. if he is not with you, no matter what kind of music, it will be a big mess. Lock with him, and talk about when to get ahead a little and when to get behind a little. Punk, Metal, Country, Calssical, Funk, folk, etc. you have to know how to do this. I did a ton of sessions with click tracks, but the best tracks have give in them- little things like leaning into the 2 measures before the bridge then dropping back a little coming out.
My music teacher, who was a drummer, taught me to visualize "pushing", "pulling" or being "right on" the beat as
B'EAT = push or anticipate or drive
BE'AT = right on time
BEA'T = pull or lay back
Not the same as dragging or rushing.
OK you guys -- NO drummer jokes!
That is the best visual representation of this that I've seen.
Bill Evans Trio intro to Autumn Leaves- Scott LaFaro does his first intro walking line way after the beat, totally out there, but it sticks to it, and then in the chorus of solos, he keeps it right ahead of the beat.
be-Bop bassists, they gave the songs the drive (along with the drummers)
be-Bop bassists, they gave the songs the drive (along with the drummers)
