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Impact of volume and full band noise on tone settings

monsterthompson

monsterthompson

The Eighth Note Wonder Of The World
Nov 25, 2008
20,328
37,728
Hollywood
#1
I have been rethinking my tone lately and revisiting the quest for my "voice" since I've been in a new band setting for the better part of 2008. I recently picked up an Epiphone Goth Thunderbird, a Mesa 1X15 powerhouse and an M6 Carbine head. I've been playing through a Spector 5-string and a Peavey Firebass 700 with a Goliath III (4X10) for the past few years.

When I test drove the Carbine, I had it plugged into a 2X15 in the shop along with a 2X10 cabinet and I liked the sound of that combination. I pulled the 15 out of the mix because I was planning on just running the head with my existing 4X10. A few days later, I noticed I missed the sound of the 15s in the mix and GAS got the better of me and I picked up a 1X15. I loved the sound of the 4x10 and the 1X15 together :hyper:

The full rig was a beast to move and way louder than the rest of the band, so I started playing with the EQ, trying to get the right sound out of just the 1X15. I noticed that I missed the warmth and thickness of the 4X10 and I couldn't quite replicate it by adjusting the EQ. At rehearsal this weekend, I fiddled with the EQ more and found myself gravitating toward a "thinner" sound with more cut than I have played with in the past. I noticed the warmth and low-end thickness of the 4X10 was having a negative impact on my definition. By the end of rehearsal, I was rolling just the 1X15 and most of the volume on the bass was coming from the bridge pickup, when I have played from the neck pickup for the past several years.

Looking back, the sound of the instrument alone sounded much better to my ear when I was testing things at home at bedroom volumes when I had both cabinets and ran through the neck pickup. However, at stage volume with the rest of the band, the tone went from warm and thick to muddy and undefined. After rehearsal, I stuck around and played the rig with the EQ settings I was using in the band setting and realized that I wasn't in love with the "naked" tone being played without the rest of the band.

I wanted to throw this out there and get some feedback from other players on how their tone changes from project to project and the adjustments you find yourself making when you play in a band setting. I'm hoping I might stumble across something that will open my ears.

BTW - new guy here, so if this topic has been beat to death in a previous thread, point me there. I tried searching, but didn't find what I was looking for.
 
#2
Due to so many factors (frequency masking, room resonances, the drums acting as bass traps, and the way the others EQ their stuff) the sound of a bass rig soloed is generally totally useless for setting up an amp in a bar band gig. That really cool sounding smiley-face EQ that makes a bass sound cute when you're all by yourself in the bedroom or at GC is just about totally useless in the real world. Why? Because in order to get that sound out you need tons of power. And because the mids are where your bass' voice is.

So, I only buy stuff that works at a gig. After all these years (been gigging since 1976) I can make extrapolations from what I hear in the store to what works on stage, but the ultimate measure is stage. And "my sound" is the sound that gives me what I want while on-stage, not what I dial in while practicing myself. You're much better off spending that tweaking time learning how your rig reacts to different changes you make (EQ, gain, PUPs, etc.) so that you know if you need more "punch" which knobs give it to you, than you are to spend too much time trying to dial in a specific sound.

jte
 
#3
I've tried searching, but didn't find what I was looking for.
Click to expand...

Congrats!

:crying:

Why do you think Jaco did what he did? Same reason. Back pickup got all the midrange back that was missing from his stage rig and gave him the definition and control he needed. His sounds and methods of tone production were an absolute REVELATION to bass players, and it continues to reverberate throughout the electric bass world. You have just discovered part of it.

Welcome aboard the life-long journey - now the fun begins in ernest; the relentless, never-ending search for tone.

Cheers,
Cameron

monsterthompson said:
I have been rethinking my tone lately and revisiting the quest for my "voice" since I've been in a new band setting for the better part of 2008. I recently picked up an Epiphone Goth Thunderbird, a Mesa 1X15 powerhouse and an M6 Carbine head. I've been playing through a Spector 5-string and a Peavey Firebass 700 with a Goliath III (4X10) for the past few years.

When I test drove the Carbine, I had it plugged into a 2X15 in the shop along with a 2X10 cabinet and I liked the sound of that combination. I pulled the 15 out of the mix because I was planning on just running the head with my existing 4X10. A few days later, I noticed I missed the sound of the 15s in the mix and GAS got the better of me and I picked up a 1X15. I loved the sound of the 4x10 and the 1X15 together :hyper:

The full rig was a beast to move and way louder than the rest of the band, so I started playing with the EQ, trying to get the right sound out of just the 1X15. I noticed that I missed the warmth and thickness of the 4X10 and I couldn't quite replicate it by adjusting the EQ. At rehearsal this weekend, I fiddled with the EQ more and found myself gravitating toward a "thinner" sound with more cut than I have played with in the past. I noticed the warmth and low-end thickness of the 4X10 was having a negative impact on my definition. By the end of rehearsal, I was rolling just the 1X15 and most of the volume on the bass was coming from the bridge pickup, when I have played from the neck pickup for the past several years.

Looking back, the sound of the instrument alone sounded much better to my ear when I was testing things at home at bedroom volumes when I had both cabinets and ran through the neck pickup. However, at stage volume with the rest of the band, the tone went from warm and thick to muddy and undefined. After rehearsal, I stuck around and played the rig with the EQ settings I was using in the band setting and realized that I wasn't in love with the "naked" tone being played without the rest of the band.

I wanted to throw this out there and get some feedback from other players on how their tone changes from project to project and the adjustments you find yourself making when you play in a band setting. I'm hoping I might stumble across something that will open my ears.

BTW - new guy here, so if this topic has been beat to death in a previous thread, point me there. I tried searching, but didn't find what I was looking for.
Click to expand...
 
#4
It does seem neverending, at times, but for me, I always start flat, with a rig I know intimately, and go from there. Usually, a slight bump to the lower end of the mids, and presto, my tone in spades. Some rooms are more unforgiving for bass, but a bit of push to the mids, or, a cut to other frequencies, and it all works itself out.
 
#5
I did the never-ending quest for guitar tone for years (particularly distorted) and I noticed the same thing. My guitar sounded great at low volume, then horrible when I played with the band.

I noticed there are several fans of 12" speakers here and all I can think of is how I flinched when I tried the 12" powerhouse speakers in the Mesa shop. The sound was too thin and "crispy" for my taste. However, listening to the stand-alone tone I had by the end of my last rehearsal, I can see how similar it was to the 12" sound. I may be revisiting the 12s at some point. I just need to remember to sell some gear before I buy the new stuff, so my rehearsal space and apartment don't start looking like a pawn shop :)
 
#7
Another thing to keep in mind... what you hear standing close to your amp and what it really sounds like 20 feet away are vastly different.

The power and fullness you're experiencing and wanting via volume may just be false frequencies that are local to your amp, or floor coupling.


.
 
#8
^^^ ...and have ear plugs in so the drummer doesn't blow out the remaining ossicular functions in my right ear. Looks like knob twiddling is the answer, or at least an answer, but probably just part of the answer.
 
#9
what about a distorted tone?

I use an Ibanez SRX -> Senheisser wireless -> Ibanez PD7 bass overdrive/distortion -> Peavey 700 Tour -> Hartke 810XL

i'm investing in a musicman sub (passive) and a sansamp rpm soon-ish and I believe once i have the sub and sansamp finding my 'perfect tone' will come alot easier. What i'm looking for is a very Norma Jean tone, I can get pretty close in my room by myself, but in a band situation, not to much.
 
#10
If bass distortion is anything like guitar distortion, my experiences have shown that you need less fuzz than you think you need. The compression from the distortion can kill your attack and make it hard to find the cut and definition you want.
 
#11
JTE said:
Due to so many factors (frequency masking, room resonances, the drums acting as bass traps, and the way the others EQ their stuff) the sound of a bass rig soloed is generally totally useless for setting up an amp in a bar band gig.
Click to expand...
+1.The main culprit is Haas Effect. If one source is 10dB louder than another it renders the second source more or less inaudible. That means if the guitard players are uber-cranking in the mids you won't be able to hear your own mids. The answer is to turn up your mids until you can hear them, but if your cab doesn't do mids well that's a problem. You also need to tilt your cab back so that you can hear what mids are there, lest they pass you by at knee level.
 
#12
Another idea: Get the damn guitars to turn down their low mids. Making your amp louder will simply encourage them to turn up even louder.

As for knob twiddling, make very small changes in EQ. Don't go rolling the knob halfway around when you adjust. Do it gradually.

Remember, too, that after a dozen songs your ears are no longer trustworthy, even with earplugs. Ear fatigue is a real issue, especially when mixing recordings. Your ears are toasted after the first set when it comes to quality listening.
 
#13
When I worked at a bass shop, I could tell if a customer was a gigging musician Vs a studio musician Vs a bedroom hobby player purely by their perception of what sounds good. The guys who gig a lot and at loud volumes were never impressed by the gear with the big bottoms. They may not know it's called Haas Effect (btw I'm going to go read up on that when I get a chance), but they know the deal.
 
#14
Petebass said:
They may not know it's called Haas Effect (btw I'm going to go read up on that when I get a chance), but they know the deal.
Click to expand...
Haas Effect is most often associated with the psychoacoustics of directional localization, and how the ear can be fooled as to where sound is coming from.
 
#17
I can leave it to Bill Fitzmaurice to educate and kinda/sorta confuse me consistently. I never heard of the Haas Effect until now [but I have experienced it Lord knows. Effing loud guitarists...:atoz:]


Wait...

Link Removed

I hear they just love the Haas effect in Germany. Sorry...



But seriously, what would be the best link to familiarize myself further with the Haas effect?
 
#18
I was in the same place you're at about a year ago. I was having trouble understanding why my tone wasn't coming through at stage volume. For us, thats pretty damned loud. It didn't hit me until I watched a group of old dudes (old = experienced in my book) get up on an open mic stage and sound COMPLETELY different from any other band that night...mind you everybody played on the same equipment. What I noticed is that they EQ'd as a band, not individuals. This was reinforced as I watched the engineer mix our latest album. There is only so much space in the spectrum...you've got to fill your spot without stepping on anyone else too much. My question is...how was Pantera's "reinventing the steel" engineer able to make every instrument sound front and center without completely trashing the overall mix. That bass tone is crazy bad ass. The seach continues.
 
#19
Probobaly used a 2 inch tape or some older pre digital studio equipment had lots of gian in the sound board "Most likely had tubes in each preamp of each channel" and turned the mastering volume down enough to keep the signal integrity.

monokeytoe9 said:
My question is...how was Pantera's "reinventing the steel" engineer able to make every instrument sound front and center without completely trashing the overall mix. That bass tone is crazy bad ass. The seach continues.
Click to expand...
 

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