How to get SOME of your tone live

Funny you should post this. My bass rig just got super-simple. Typical setup will be a Pod X3 Live direct to the board. Backup will be a direct box direct to the board. My band uses in-ear monitoring so I don't even need an amp to hear myself on stage.

I gave up on trying to get perfect tone right around the time I started playing live a lot and not just dorking around in my bedroom. Now if I can get a decent fundamental I'm happy, and if I can get some clarity in the mids and highs I'm ecstatic.

You guys are my new bass heroes.

not wanting to highjack this, but also not wanting to make a new thread for my question. seemed apropriate here to ask.

I play bass for some while now (2 years) and joined a new band. well be gigging next summer. never played a live gig or used a PA. I read all these comments on soundguys and major problems and stuff. So i came to ask myself this question,

If i dont really know PA's inside out, or other memebers from my band, are we screwed then? Like, get a total @ss-sound live? or, does it really matter that much when youre just starting out?

By nature, our 3 piece band is in for inputs from other people who have done it more than we have. So if we just ask things were not sure about to (for example the soundguy) we should be going the right way eh?

If not, ill go and learn everthing there is to know about PA's and even maybe buy one just to practice 'the art of using PA's' (or something similar)

also, thanks for posting the question OP helped me to think of more stuff during setups and soundproblem-things

greetings,
ye-ol' n00b

in short, my sesame-street translation:

the band is the cd that is played,
the soundguy is there to let the cd sound good (volume wise and such things)

we only need to be playing good, so he can do his joob good and make all the elmo's out there very happy and smiling

that should be our main concern for the first period of time, right?

Loempiaketzer said:

in short, my sesame-street translation:

the band is the cd that is played,
the soundguy is there to let the cd sound good (volume wise and such things)

we only need to be playing good, so he can do his joob good and make all the elmo's out there very happy and smiling

that should be our main concern for the first period of time, right?

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Somehow I understood that. Weird.

Gearhead17 said:

Here are the tricks that have worked for me:

Provide your own mic and mic stand. Set it up your self.

Provide your own DI box (Radial JDI is my favorite).

Make sure you have some way to tune silently on stage and not give the soundman a loud pop as you switch basses.

Keep your volume under control - loud enough for you to hear yourself and still hear everyone else on stage.

Present your ideal tone to the soundguy with words and phrases like: "try", "blend my signals in a way that sounds best to you", "let me know what works better", "can we try two signals and you blend them to what sounds best for the room?" "Can I set up my rig on "this angle/this spot" so I will not mess with your FOH sound so much?" "Hey man, I don't have both cabs hooked up just the top one is on so I can hear myself better and not turn up so much". The less work a soundman has to do, the more likely they will cater towards you. Along with that, the more you are aware of the difficulties soundmen face at a show, the better.

Show up early to the gig and have everything set up quickly.

Stop stressing about your tone, no one in the audience gives a damn about it except you.

Hitting notes evenly and utilizing good technique will make the soundguy's job easier for the entire show. He won't have to put you through a compressor, and he can leave more treble/calrity to your tone because you won't have much click/clack from your bass flying through due to poor technique.

What all of us have to realize - every venue has different acoustics and no matter what our bass tone is - it will sound different in every room we play in. Getting a small aspect of our tone to the PA system SHOULD BE the ideal goal. Getting your awesome tone to the PA and having it sound good in every venue will NOT happen.

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I would add:

-Have your arrangements in order. Not everybody is supposed to clog the same range frequency-wise.

-Have your stage sound in check. Carve EQ´s of different amps "around each other" in a way that makes them differ a bit (i.e. lows for bass and kick, low mids for guitar and vocs etc.). Avoid the extremes (lows on guitars, excessive sub on bass etc.).

I've got my own idea now - use the DI post-eq...the soundguy has eq at his end, and you can be open to changing yours!

addylewis said:

I've got my own idea now - use the DI post-eq...the soundguy has eq at his end, and you can be open to changing yours!

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Do that and you'll most likely boost where he already has too much, and cut where he does not have enough.

+ You´d probably be tweaking the signal going to FOH mid-show... not a good idea. The FOH guy´s got many things to do all the time. He should not be worried with constantly altering bass sound...

kalle74 said:

+ You´d probably be tweaking the signal going to FOH mid-show... not a good idea. The FOH guy´s got many things to do all the time. He should not be worried with constantly altering bass sound...

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Bah...gives them something to do. I hate soundmen who whine about someone daring to touch a knob..."Waaaaaaaahhhh!! I have to move a knob!!"

JimmyM said:

Bah...gives them something to do. I hate soundmen who whine about someone daring to touch a knob..."Waaaaaaaahhhh!! I have to move a knob!!"

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I agree - unless that on-stage knob tweak created a change in the room that cannot be compensated for by making a change in the PA (or cannot be compensated for without increasing the volume of the mix - which is likely too loud already).

JimmyM said:

Bah...gives them something to do. I hate soundmen who whine about someone daring to touch a knob..."Waaaaaaaahhhh!! I have to move a knob!!"

Click to expand...

I hope you´re not serious...

My point is:

The time and attention of the engineer should be directed towards making the band mix sound better. Not to be disturbed by why his mix keeps shifting in odd directions, and trying to keep up with the whims of the bass player (the guitar player´s constant knob-fiddling is enough)

With the band´s sound somewhat consistent, the engineer can move onto more important tasks, such as riding the vocals´ level...

Well if I need something onstage, I'm going to adjust it. I'm not going to leave it just because the soundman wants me to. It isn't THAT hard to deal with.

JimmyM said:

Well if I need something onstage, I'm going to adjust it. I'm not going to leave it just because the soundman wants me to. It isn't THAT hard to deal with.

Click to expand...

thus, give the soundguy pre-EQ DI signal, so you both can fiddle your way.

I can't. I run a speaker DI off my tube amp, which is tied to the controls of my amp. And no, I'm not going to run straight into the DI if I have a tube amp. They can deal with the little tiny changes I do.

This might make me sound like a "hippocryt", but.......

As a bass player and a 'soundguy', I've played both sides of the field (shutup, peanut gallery... )

As a sound guy, one of the worst and most frustrating experiences I had with a 'bass player' was a guy who insisted on having to have 'his sound' - which consisted of a bass going into a SWR Head then into a Sansamp BDDI and giving me a post-everything out. "His sound" was basically CRAP, because (as his bandmates told me before the show... LOL!) he was a frustrated guitar player who decided to play bass for their band, and yet wanted his bass to sound like a guitar, and played stuff up the neck and 'flashy' and 'guitar-like'. (This was NOT an original band - they played all classic rock covers.) I did my best to add some low end and make there be some bottom, but during the show, the guy kept walking out in front of the mains, and going back to his rig to EQ the low end out and more 'buzzy-crap' back in. By the 3rd time, there was nothing left to be done - if he wanted to sound like s@#$ then he was welcome to it. BTW, the band kicked him out a few months later.....

The best and easiest guy I ever ran was another guitar player who happened to play bass in another band - his bass rig was bass/cord/PA power amp/2-15" cabinet. I had a DI right off his bass, and literally had nothing to tweak on his sound all night.


Me? I understand where the jaded soundguy is coming from, so I am sympathetic. But for the things I do, I need my fx in the mains - and until I find the easy-going guy I trust and will give me 2 lines - 1 direct and 1 effected, and mix them so the FX actually make it to the mains, my only signal I give is a Post-everything send. The thing is, I will check every sound I use with them, and my EQ is almost completely flat, and I have done my due-diligence to balance levels on all my sounds (Chorus, Phaser, Distortion, Synth, Boost (not crazy-out-of-the-world), Fretless emulator, etc)

The problem is, there are many inexperienced players out there who don't understand what's happening between their bass and their FX and their onstage rig, and the FOH rig. Guys with a really inadequate crappy amp will boost the hell out of their lows to make it sound 'better', and if this signal goes to FOH, the soundguy then has to re-EQ the bass channel to take it all out, cuz just FLAT his rig is capable of shaking and pounding the room. It's safer for the soundguy to take a DI off the bass and not deal with any extra EQing the bass player has done for his on-stage compensation. I just have to hold my ground and convince him I know what I'm doing and that there is a purpose to it, and I'm not going to save the "Patch-Of-Death" to suprise him with later in the night.

Also, my rig right now is Bass>ADA Preamp (mostly flat, use it for Chorus and Comp and some OD)>Boss VF-1 in FX loop (for Phaser, Fretless, and Synth sounds, like simulated Taurus Pedals)> Bergantino IP112w/EX112. The signal goin to FOH from the ADA is Post EQ (w/FX), and my Berg rig is a flat representation of what's going out front - I hear what he hears. I've also done many shows where I skip the amp and go direct from the same source, and get a tiny bit back in the monitor - don't need it loud, cuz I can feel it from the subs. You'd be amazed at the amount of bass a soundguy will put in the mains when he's not being blasted by stage volume.... (guitarists, take note! LOL!)

This is what my band does, we set our volume to match our drummer and mix perfectly with absolutely NO PA. We play alot of basements and smaller venues, as well as larger venues with full sound. We don't mess with our sound ever, unless we are playing outside in which case I go from playing at 7 on my SVT-Classic to 10, Because bass goes nowhere outside. I don't ever let a sound guy use a DI cause they sound like butt, I have them blend a sm-57 and a Sure Kick mic or a Audix D-6.

Not to mention I also have a sound diagram on us for every show, showing how we set up our gear, where we need power, a list of preferred mics and channels needed, and prefered monitors. But make sure if you have NONE of it, you still sound great.

Being an instrumental post-rock style band we live by the philosophy that we should sound exactly the same without a PA as when we have one, only louder. It's better to be prepared that way, know how you want to sound and let the sound guy know that. Most sound techs set us during the sound check then get a beer because they have nothing to worry about. When you play 11 shows in 11 states in 11 days, its good to know you will sound good in any room they throw at you.

Just for a quick update on that last post, since everyone is talking about DI and I basically called you all out on it. I play with alot of pedals (delay, Loop station, Sansamp, English Muffin, Chorus, tape echo, volume, and a small stone) I have 2 loop blenders so I can do my own pre/post tone blending on the pedals that need it. And the rest I leave out because I don't want my rig to sound clean when I use them. For that reason I will not let a soundguy use a DI.
The combination of a SVT-classic, 8x10, and a 1951 Fender bass reason enough to not want a DI though in my opinion, sounds like sex.