Double Bass Nickel silver endpin?

Anybody out there try a nickel silver endpin? I have heard of, read about, or actually tried variations of carbon fiber, titanium, brass/steel/carbon mixes, wood, etc. Just wondering if anybody has experience with solid rods of this relatively heavy alloy...

Or to take it even farther "out," anybody able to A/B between stainless steel and nickel silver?

Mark Carlsen said:

Eric,
You have a smokin' bass... How out do you want to go ?

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Thanks, Mark, for the kind words. As you can appreciate, more than most folks on this earth, this bass' amazingness is Jed Kriegel's doing, not mine.

That said, as you seem to be suggesting, I am tinkering with the hood scoop over the supercharger.

Seriously, though, I am amazed, with this particular bass, the way that endpin material changes sound and response. So far, I have ruled out solid carbon fiber and various steel tubes with different fillers (brass, different diameters of steel, and carbon fiber).

The low-end power and fullness seems tied to mass; with a 1/2" solid (generic carbon) steel pin, it is already pretty organ-like. I am looking for a bit more oomph and a touch more warmth.

Hence the heavier copper alloy idea. Haven't found anyone, yet, who has tried the nickel silver. I notice as I read about it, that it is generally heavier than most brass, is often used for woodwind instrument key assemblies, and is purported to have "good" resonant qualities for instruments (whatever "good" means)...

This guy is pretty deeply into endpin weirdness. He hasn't tried the nickel silver. He is suggesting stainless steel, for a bit more mass than carbon steel and the higher nickel content. Here is his graphic, which is pretty "out" in itself:

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Here is some other interesting stuff from Wikipedia (not that this is definitive, in any way):

"Musical instruments, including the flute, saxophone, trumpet, and French horn can be made of nickel silver. For example, some leading saxophone manufacturers, such as Keilwerth,[4][5] Selmer, [Invalid or Expired Link Removed], Yanagisawa, and Yamaha offer saxophones made of nickel silver. It possesses a bright and powerful sound quality; an additional benefit is that nickel silver does not require a lacquer finish. For that reason, it is the most commonly used for woodwind keys material — most clarinets, oboes and similar wind instruments have nickel silver keys. It is used to produce the tubes (called staples) onto which oboe reeds are tied. It was used in the construction of the National tricone resophonic guitar. Guitar, mandolin, banjo, bass, and related string instruments' frets are typically made of nickel silver."

Since my New Harmony endpin socket accepts a 1/2" rod, I am not worried about bending, really. I don't think that the material would work for a smaller diameter pin, unless the player keeps it pretty far into the bass. I will try it and report back, per Rob's suggestion.

All good stuff, except that I am a pituitary freak at 6'-6," am using a 1/2" pin, and it is hanging out there, past the socket, about a foot. Any specie of 1/2" diameter wood will have my bass bouncing around like a pea in a boxcar, if the pin doesn't just snap off one day...

The thoughtful experience behind your post does beg examining the idea of a wood pin with a 1/2" stem epoxied into the top of it. Thanks for re-opening the range of possibilities (I think )

OK, tried the .5" nickel silver rod. Just returned it to the vendor from where it came. Comparison to my Bb steel endpin:

Pluses:
- Clearer note distinction, especially in mid-and-upper registers (arco).
- Easier to hear oneself playing (arco)
- Heart-breakingly lovely upper register tone (arco); plaintive, piercing, sweet

Minuses:
- Lost the "organ-like" E string (arco) and the growling, floor-rumbling pizz on the E string
- Lower strings started a little harder under the bow
- The pin itself was more flexible; with the rod sticking out a foot or so, the bass moved around a bit more

Even though the mass was decent, my suspicion is that the heightened flexibility was not helping things, somehow.

All in all, not a keeper, on my bass. Back into the metallurgy pond it goes...

Next trials will be 17-4 stainless steel, then some kind of tungsten alloy. I will check out some alloys that will be a bit heavier and-or stiffer than the regular carbon steel pin I have in. The nickel in the stainless may help, too.

I do not know if anyone cares about my little diversion, but I just wanted to follow up on my OP...

Ah Louis,

I get it. I noticed on the French Cello Bows endpin offering list, for whatever its worth, that Mr. Karr is currently using a brass tube/carbon fiber core on his current Ham bass. (down near the bottom of the page)

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That would match what he is playing; piercing, upper register stuff that needs to be heard in the corners of a big hall.

Based on what I have been doing, on my bass, I would expect a brass/carbon pin to have loud, sweet, penetrating highs but not much fullness or bottom on the E string. I want a bit more meat down below...so to speak.

As you say, it does sound as if something needs to change on your bass. For me, I am just tinkering with endpins, for now, before I dare monkey with the tailpiece. I would like to try my Marvin, but I don't want to change too much at once. On another bass I had set up with a Marvin tailpiece and a carbon fiber endpin, the bottom fell out and it sounded nasal, until I put in the steel pin again. On that particular bass, I did keep the Marvin because it was helping with a thorny wolf problem, as well as helping all the strings speak evenly.

I don't know your bass, but I would guess that a heavier (maybe even a plain vanilla steel) endpin would take some of the curse off the nasal sound. Is the socket such that you can merely swap out the pins, as I have been doing, or is it more involved? Do you want to leave the Marvin for wolf/eveness issues and swap the pin?

Online metals can be your friend, if you have a somewhat routine socket diameter (or, your undoing, if you are as obsessive as some of us...:-O ) Invalid Link Removed

Good luck. I just ordered the stainless steel pin...

I am unsure of where the line lies; it seems to be some combination of stiffness, mass, material and the particular needs/characteristics of the bass. I know that one bass lutheir has written emphatically in favor of lightweight pins. I know that some great players love carbon fiber and titanium pins. I guess it seems to have a lot to do with the bass and the sound the player wants (as ever...)

Hi Louis,

Sounds like a great strategy! I have not found steel rod larger than .5" easily. I did find .5" rod at the Big Box home improvement store (Lowe's). I also spent some time bugging local welding and machine shops for "drops." After many phone calls, I gave up and went to Online Metals.

Another source would be any friends you have who are metal fabricators. Where you live, there are all kinds of folks building stuff for movie weirdness...if you can find them.

Online metals can get you a 12," 24", or "custom cut" piece of .625 steel rod in a couple of days. They do have a "restocking" fee of 10-30%, so reglar carbon steel would probably not be worth returning.

Please keep us posted.

I am following the suggestions of Mike Oishi, at French Cello Bow; he is the fellow who suggested stainlesss (303 is very inexpensive in round rod, I am going for the 17-4 because I can get it ground and it looks stiffer). The nickel silver was my own wacky idea...

robobass said:

With so much rod sticking out, you might only get so far with your material experiments. For one thing, bouncing will be a problem no matter what you use. I bet changing to an angled pin would have a much more drastic effect than any differences between peg materials. Also, didn't Gary Karr advocate a platform under the pin for awhile? It may not be the most practical thing, but for someone as tall as you it might be worth trying.

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Well said and well considered. I have eyed the angled pins for awhile; I am not yet ready for that level of change. Of course, even if the pin is angled, the material will still matter.

I have negligible "bounce" with .5" carbon fiber or steel. I did have trouble with bounce trying to use smaller diameter steel (or carbon fiber) rods, or with the .5" copper alloy rod I just tried. Seems as if for now, if I stick with something as stiff as steel that is acceptable.

It is true, though, with the pin out a foot, it is a big lever, working on the socket. With a steel pin, there is still some minor motion that happens as all the parts move slightly, but it is not noticeable when I play. Lucky that I am not standing on my bass, yes?

Your point is a great one, though; with a bent pin, the "flex" would be removed altogether...

I have seen folks using the amplification boxes, both with 'cello and with bass.

Well, I got the stainless steel rod today. Interesting, for a rod of identical diameter and length, the sound is noticeably different from the carbon steel rod. A bit more treble; clearer. Less massive low end.

Of course, there are many varieties of stainless and carbon steel alloys. I have only tried these two.

I should mention, too, that this is all being done in conjunction with a New Harmony socket/tightening assembly, which is quite lightweight. I am guessing that the socket itself is Delrin, or something similar. In other words, with an ebony/brass socket, changing the pin itself might cause less dramatic differences...