• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Suffering from dead spots (especially with flats)? Try lower tension strings

Boneless

Boneless

Inactive
Jan 2, 2007
1,238
1,564
Monopoli (Bari), Italy
#1
I had a problem with my Guild Starfire I. The low F# on the E string (second fret) was dead. Warbly, muted, low sustain, etc. The only strings that didn't cause it to be dead were LaBella DTFs ultralight gauge, which were ultimately too light though (nice tone but no deep bass, treble strings that would rattle against the bridge and play like a sitar).

This ensued a neverending (and expensive) search for the "right" set of strings. I tried GHS Precision Flats in the light gauge (45-95, I think?). Hated them and the E and A strings just wouldn't play. Ernie Ball Group III flats didn't work for me either. I had a set custom-made by Pyramid for the weird medium scale length of the Guild Starfire (it's actually a short scale but the tailpiece is far back enough to require medium scale or long scale strings). I tried, out of desperation, Thomann's cheap flats, they were not too bad at all considering the price but the F# dead spot was still there. I tried LaBella's medium scale DTFs and I liked them, but I didn't love them, and I think I broke them setting witness points (not going to do that again).

I have now mounted a set of 45-100 Cobalt flats. I have now discovered that they are, possibly, my favourite flats alongside Thomastiks. They are not traditional sounding, but their low tension means they are extremely balanced all over the fretboard, and the E string now plays beautifully. And the dead spot is now gone! I may have chosen too low of a gauge (maybe I should have gone with a 45-105 set, since the bass strings are even too flexible) but I'm in love.

Oh, and I don't see why Cobalt flats are never mentioned among low tension flats. They are even lower tension than Thomastik (or at least they are more flexible).
 
#2
Well, I imagine that the reason they aren't considered low tension flats, is because they actually aren't. I'm sure someone will be along shortly with the actual tension numbers... It's easy to confuse "tension" - as in pounds of pull needed to pull the strings to pitch - with "stiffness" - as in how flexible (or inflexible) the strings are. If you have enough tension? Yes, that will make the strings feel pretty stiff; but, IME, high tension strings are usually kinda stiff to begin with. La Bella's LTF-4A Flexible Flats are actually lower tension than TI Jazz Flats (136 lbs. vs. 143), but they feel stiffer - because they are made to feel that way; more like "normal" flats. The Dogal JC106A "Jaco" Flats on my '73 Rick 4001 are almost 1/3 the tension of the La Bella LTF's, but actually feel a little stiffer. About like the Optima RB Flats on my Rick 4003, TBH. Sound a lot like them, too...
I had an old, salvaged set of Chromes on my G&L ASAT Bass for a couple of years - until they just... died of old age. I was pretty happy with them - although I replaced them with a set of Fender 9050L's. Which I Really like... I never considered those Chromes as particularly flexible, though; more like "average for that gauge of flats"...
But, hey; if they work for you - and you like them? That's all that counts, really...:thumbsup:
 
#3
Boneless said:
I have now mounted a set of 45-100 Cobalt flats. I have now discovered that they are, possibly, my favourite flats alongside Thomastiks. They are not traditional sounding, but their low tension means they are extremely balanced all over the fretboard, and the E string now plays beautifully. And the dead spot is now gone! I may have chosen too low of a gauge (maybe I should have gone with a 45-105 set, since the bass strings are even too flexible) but I'm in love.
Click to expand...

GIBrat51 said:
Well, I imagine that the reason they aren't considered low tension flats, is because they actually aren't. I'm sure someone will be along shortly with the actual tension numbers... It's easy to confuse "tension" - as in pounds of pull needed to pull the strings to pitch - with "stiffness" - as in how flexible (or inflexible) the strings are.
Click to expand...

EB Cobalt Flats 45-65-80-100:

G 045 - 47.58 (lbs.)
D 065 - 52.51
A 080 - 44.49
E 100 - 37.72 (Total 182.30)

EB Cobalt Flats 45-65-85-105:

G 045 - 47.58 (lbs.)
D 065 - 52.51
A 085 - 49.12
E 105 - 41.78 (Total 191.00)

TI Jazz Flats 43-56-70-100:

G 043 - 37.03 (lbs.)
D 056 - 37.47
A 070 - 31.30
E 100 - 34.39 (Total 140.19)
 
#8
I've played well over 100 basses and owned 20 or so for the past 35 years, but I've never ever seen one that had a dead spot as low as low F#. Typically, dead spots are located around high B, C, C#, D (4-7 position on the G string). I don't think we are talking dead spots here. Possibly a high fret that causes some weird buzzing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lobster11, logdrum and InnerCityBass
#11
Boneless said:
And yet these strings work well.
Click to expand...

You are both right to a degree. Changing strings will not cure a dead spot - it's in the neck, and it's still there as much as it ever was. What strings can do it make one a bit less audible. Dead spots tend to steal the fundamental of the note, leaving the harmonics behind - they don't steal all the energy of the string , they steal the energy at one frequency. With regular flats, the strings themselves lose harmonics rapidly, so if a dead spot steals the fundamental, you have a really obvious dead spot. You have changed to strings that keep their harmonics ringing much longer than normal flats, so something is still going on, even though the dead spot is still stealing your fundamental. Through most bass rigs, the fundamentals of notes as low as you're talking about don't easlly make it through the rig all that well, emphasizing the harmonics of notes that low, and once again making a dead spot that is that low tougher to hear - so long as there are harmonics still ringing.

It's not the tension, it's the harmonics. Any decent set of rounds will give you similar (probably better) results.
 
Last edited:
#12
blr2 said:
I've played well over 100 basses and owned 20 or so for the past 35 years, but I've never ever seen one that had a dead spot as low as low F#. Typically, dead spots are located around high B, C, C#, D (4-7 position on the G string). I don't think we are talking dead spots here. Possibly a high fret that causes some weird buzzing.
Click to expand...

You are right that dead spots typically don't show up there, but I have seen them - they are particularly prevalent on some headless basses, there was one on one of my Kramers, and one on another bass neck I had. Sometimes the open A string, you will get a dead spot there. On a lot of basses, there is a dead spot lurking there just "offshore" - detune your open A string (which is now a G (or F#, or...) string) and that open string will be dead.

The Physics is fairly straightforward - the dead spot we are most familiar with is up on the G string, higher on the neck. That dead spot originates not at the lowest resonant frequency of the neck, but at the second lowest mode - where the end of the neck and the place where the dead spot is are moving in opposite directions. The's the typical case.

For the lowest resonant frequency, the whole neck is moving in the same direction, with the end of it moving the most. With a headless bass, if one of your open strings is tuned to that frequency, you are royally hosed - it can be a wicked dead spot, much worse than the typical G string one. Luckily, on most necks that resonance is below the open A, and above the open E, but in certain cases, it can show up with a vengeance. In this case, we might have a pronounced enough lowest mode dead spot that it's affecting the F# close to, but not quite at the end of the neck. If this is the case, detuning the A string to F# should give you a dead spot that's a bit worse than the one on the E string (as it's even lower on the neck).
 
  • Like
Reactions: brandau
#14
I use Labella Flats strings
.96 shorts on their Beatle Bass
.105 shorts on the the AF200
The low tensions are on the MIK P-FSO (I can't tell the difference)
.110 heavy Jamerson's (since renamed) on the fretless

They all feel about the same to me, which is kind of strange however, I think it's due to my hand position which differs as I shift around for suitable tone song to song and phrase to phrase.
 
#15
I found a cool trick for dead spots. If you fret another note while you’re playing the dead note it will change the resonate frequency of the dead note and it will ring out longer. So if C# on your G String is usually dead, play it with your pinky and press down the C# on your A String with your index finger. Don’t play the lower C#, just press it. Notice your high C# rings out now.
 
#16
Glad you found a set of strings that sound and feel good on your bass!

All the replies just reenforce the knowledge that there’s a difference between the physics of sound and our perception (both tactical and aural) of it, and that there’s something problematic in how our language doesn’t clearly make a distinction between the two. Try teaching in a university department with a bunch of audio engineers ready to pedantically explain the difference between volume and loudness at the drop of a hat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HaphAsSard
#17
Boneless said:
I had a problem with my Guild Starfire I. The low F# on the E string (second fret) was dead. Warbly, muted, low sustain, etc. The only strings that didn't cause it to be dead were LaBella DTFs ultralight gauge, which were ultimately too light though (nice tone but no deep bass, treble strings that would rattle against the bridge and play like a sitar).

This ensued a neverending (and expensive) search for the "right" set of strings. I tried GHS Precision Flats in the light gauge (45-95, I think?). Hated them and the E and A strings just wouldn't play. Ernie Ball Group III flats didn't work for me either. I had a set custom-made by Pyramid for the weird medium scale length of the Guild Starfire (it's actually a short scale but the tailpiece is far back enough to require medium scale or long scale strings). I tried, out of desperation, Thomann's cheap flats, they were not too bad at all considering the price but the F# dead spot was still there. I tried LaBella's medium scale DTFs and I liked them, but I didn't love them, and I think I broke them setting witness points (not going to do that again).

I have now mounted a set of 45-100 Cobalt flats. I have now discovered that they are, possibly, my favourite flats alongside Thomastiks. They are not traditional sounding, but their low tension means they are extremely balanced all over the fretboard, and the E string now plays beautifully. And the dead spot is now gone! I may have chosen too low of a gauge (maybe I should have gone with a 45-105 set, since the bass strings are even too flexible) but I'm in love.

Oh, and I don't see why Cobalt flats are never mentioned among low tension flats. They are even lower tension than Thomastik (or at least they are more flexible).
Click to expand...

Glad to hear that you mention the dead spot fix with cobalt flat. But if you wanna make sure it completely gone , you can test with add overdrive + fully dial back tone knob, fret the F# and pluck the E string , check and compare the fuzz/sustain to F and G. ( I always use this idea to check/inspect dead spot.....)

About the string tension topic, I use Ti flat , la Bella LTF4A and Cobalt flat 45-100. Currently have 3 bass guitar strings with Cobalt flat , notable slightly higher tension and stiffer than both Ti flat and LTF 4A. But still less stiff compare to ECB81 and 9050L.
 
Last edited:
#18
Honestly I do believe that strings do play a role in moving dead spots also. I mean, the added/lowered tension might shift the resonant frequency? Tension is a bit like pressure, or a voltage differential (in Italian, voltage and tension are the same word), and a material that has some form of non-linear behaviour is bound to respond differently. Even a mostly "linear", mostly isotropic material like air (for most intents and purposes) does change behaviour if the initial conditions are changed. Also the way the string vibrates, etc. might excite that resonance more or less. Anyway, here we aren't talking about a dead spot that's being in some way masked by upper harmonics, I can tell the difference. There is no loss of lower harmonics now, while there was before.

Also, semiacoustic basses in my experience (or otherwise hollowbodies) tend to suffer more from dead spots in lower positions compared to solid bodies. Even if it's only a centre block. Epi Jack Casadies, on the other hand, must be really well designed because although they are more true hollowbodies than centre-block semiacoustics they don't suffer from dead spots at all, in my experience. (I have never played such a consistent bass, at least if we're talking about vintage-inspired models).
 
#20
No, I didn't. The clip-on tuner I have is too light anyway to make a difference.

TIs are certainly lower tension, but these Cobalt flats do not feel at all like the usual flatwound string. For usual, I mean:

- LaBella DTFs (45-105)
- Pyramid Golds (which I don't think are very high tension but certainly feel stiffer)
- Ernie Ball Group flats (I tried the III set)
- Fender flats (45-105)
- Rotosound flats (40-100)
- GHS Precision flats (40-95)
- Optima Chrome flats

Cobalts may even have higher tension than some of these strings but their flexibility means that they still feel much looser, sustain longer, etc.

And again, the dead spot on the fretted low F# wasn't there with the LaBella DTFs in their ultralight gauge (.039-.096) so maybe I'm not right about the correlation between tension and dead spots but I'm at least in the vicinity, just like people weren't all that wrong about miasmas back in the day. :roflmao:
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back