$1,000 Squier...A different approach to Squier guitars

[petrus61]

First, lets call a US Fender what it is. On the standard series, there are many, many differences. Graphite support rods, heavier duty bridge, better tuners and select Alder or Ash bodies with arguably much nicer finishes. No Squier has any of these things, so it's an apples to oranges comparison.

If I paid $1000 for my former Squier VMJ 5, I would expect a lighter body, much better pickups and much better hardware, right down to the knobs. I got lucky with both the VM5's I've owned regarding frets and neck quality, so I would leave that from the equation.

I think most people who have owned and played both could very easily decide what the differences were and whether the price difference is justifiable.

 

[varunjh]

I get your point, but actually overseas prices aren't always directly proportional.

My example...

Squire Jag SS in US: $150
in UK: $300 (£200)

Gibson SG Bass faded in US: $900
in UK: $900 (£600)

As you can see, in terms of value in the UK, you get more bass for your money if you spend a little more.

Hence why I'm trying to put cost aside, so as to identify not that its great for the money (as this is different all over the world), but whether they are great full stop!

I ended up paying around $450 for my squier vm mustang bass(including shipping and customs duty). The variety of basses available in India is not that great...mainly Ibanez, LTD, Warwick Rockbass, etc[so called metal basses ].
Things have started to improve a bit now in terms of options in buying basses but then again very few shops have good basses in stock. The MIM fender bases start at around $700s here. A few years ago when i was broke and in college you could get MIM fender basses in india for the price i paid for my squier mustang

Anyway back to the topic of the thread things i would change/prefer
* hardcase or atleast a soft case (esp cause the choices for a mustang bass case are i think only the fender one)
* better fret work
* better tuners

 

[lowvoice]

Your example is very flawed though. Your talking about completely different basses manufactured by completely different companies for completely different price points.

The more accurate example would be.

Fender J Marcus Miller in the UK.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Fender J Marcus Miller in the US.
Invalid Link Removed

Squier VM J in the UK.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Squier VM J in the US.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Thanks for the example, it really shows my point. The Expensive instruments are in line with the £/$ exchange rate, the squier is the same amount of $ as it is £!

So therefore in the UK, and from the above in India too, the price you pay for a squier is far more proportionally than those of other brands.

BTW varunjh, I too remember when a MIM fender was less than a Squier! It is the same here in the UK.

 

[AltGrendel]

If I paid 1K for my Jag SS, I would expect a more stable neck, better pots, and better balanced pups.

 

[mbelue]

Thanks for the example, it really shows my point. The Expensive instruments are in line with the £/$ exchange rate, the squier is the same amount of $ as it is £!

So therefore in the UK, and from the above in India too, the price you pay for a squier is far more proportionally than those of other brands.

BTW varunjh, I too remember when a MIM fender was less than a Squier! It is the same here in the UK.

I think I understand what you are referring to now. Markup costs on budget brands. Economies of scale and shipping price are real close in a fender vs. squier.

 

[GK Growl]

"First, lets call a US Fender what it is. On the standard series, there are many, many differences. Graphite support rods, heavier duty bridge, better tuners and select Alder or Ash bodies with arguably much nicer finishes. No Squier has any of these things, so it's an apples to oranges comparison."

OK but do any of the above mentioned items make the Fender better? And to whom? All of this is subjective. I'm sure there are plenty of basses with all those things that just happen to be lemons (in feel and sound - which are two very different things) and some very plain basses that are diamonds. Then you factor in the visual part and our tendency to be visual creatures and it becomes a battle between what is real, perceived, and desired by the person. A blind person who plays bass would at least eliminate the visual aspect unless they can rub their fingers across the logo and feel the difference in brand names.

 

[jumblemind]

That is how Squiers are assessed, they're good for the money. That's the rationale for their entire existence.

+1 People are fans because they can spend next to nothing and get a bass that plays well and sounds fine. For the longest time, most basses that cheap (relative to inflation) were barely playable and didn't sound all that great.

 

[hdracer]

I've always thought that the pricing for a Fender MIA bass, or a Gibson MIA bass has to do with the logo big time. You pay $500 or $600 for the bass, the rest goes to the logo. They overcharge for the logo and bassist are more than willing to pay for it. The difference between A MIA and a MIM is the frontier between Mexico and US, and some components. IMO that is.

What about labor costs and the cost of running a business in the US like property taxes on the manufacturing plants, OSHA compliance costs, EPA costs and a thousand other taxes and fees?

 

[petrus61]

"First, lets call a US Fender what it is. On the standard series, there are many, many differences. Graphite support rods, heavier duty bridge, better tuners and select Alder or Ash bodies with arguably much nicer finishes. No Squier has any of these things, so it's an apples to oranges comparison."

OK but do any of the above mentioned items make the Fender better? And to whom? All of this is subjective. I'm sure there are plenty of basses with all those things that just happen to be lemons (in feel and sound - which are two very different things) and some very plain basses that are diamonds. Then you factor in the visual part and our tendency to be visual creatures and it becomes a battle between what is real, perceived, and desired by the person. A blind person who plays bass would at least eliminate the visual aspect unless they can rub their fingers across the logo and feel the difference in brand names.

I'm not saying they make a Fender any better, but they are physical differences that have an overall effect on the bass, whether looking at it or playing it. The differences cannot be denied because they are much more than simple aesthetics. Love it, hate it or be indifferent about it, the differences are there and very obvious to anyone who has played both.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

I myself was pleasantly shocked recently when I tried a bunch of Squiers that seemed to be better than Mexican (and indeed Japanese) Fenders.

It isn't going to stay a pleasant thread for long if you drop bombs like that. There are folks that are very happy with their Mexican and Japanese Fenders. If anything I'd say the quality of the various Fenders would be (in descending order); Fender CS, Fender Japan, Fender USA, Fender Mexico, Squier.

There is a also a kind of thing around here where people post about how Squiers/SBMM/Epiphone basses are "just as good as" the more expensive model. Then all the guys that bought the more expensive model feel like they are being called idiots for spending a $1000 more and dogpile on the thread. Feelings get hurt, thread closes.

Personally I haven't owned a Squier since the 90's, but I really like their 5 string fretless jazz and the Vintage Modified basses.

 

[GK Growl]

If anything I'd say the quality of the various Fenders would be (in descending order); Fender CS, Fender Japan, Fender USA, Fender Mexico, Squier.

Again, this is subjective and making a lot of assumptions. I'd say that you are doing what you accused the other poster of doing. This implies that Squier is poor quality. The answer is in the middle. It's the radical "you're an idiot for spending money on a Fender" and you're an idiot for playing a low quality instrument" views that get everyone in trouble.

 

[lfmn16]

It isn't going to stay a pleasant thread for long if you drop bombs like that. There are folks that are very happy with their Mexican and Japanese Fenders. If anything I'd say the quality of the various Fenders would be (in descending order); Fender CS, Fender Japan, Fender USA, Fender Mexico, Squier.

Many people that buy inexpensive basses feel the need to validate them by claiming they are "just as good" as more expensive instruments or that "nobody needs to spend more" to get a good bass. Many people that buy expensive instruments feel the need to justify that expense.

I don't know why people can't just buy what they want, be happy with what they have, and be happy for other people regardless of whether the other person's instrument is more or less expensive than what they have.

These threads ALWAYS end up badly.

 

[experimental bassist]

I don't own a Squier, but I did spend some time with a Squier MB4 years ago (It was a former guitarist's), and I like the gist of this thread, so here's my 2 cents:

If that MB4 was a $1,000 in today's money, the main thing I would like would be better pickups and electronics.

Honestly I can probably gig with anything that resembles a bass and makes some sort of bass-like noise, but for $1k I expect to be able to record with an instrument.

That MB4 Squier bass played fine (after I set it up to my liking), stayed in tune, and was able to pass several gigs in VERY rough and questionable locations. But ABd to my MIM Precision, it just didn't have the fidelity - it wasn't as bright or as deep sounding.

And yeah, I am a Precision guy at heart, I do not seek any "burp" in my tone whatsoever, but FWIW I found the stock J pickup VERY weak in that bass.

Comparing a Squier to current MIA, as far as the graphite rods, heavier bridge, etc., really that's hit or miss with me. Give me a bass with few if any NOTICABLE dead spots in the neck (like my MIM Precision), tuners that keep the bass in tune, and I'm happy.

Hey, no graphite rods in pre-CBS Fenders, and they sound great and proved to be very robust and functional.

Oh, I am a stickler for intonation up and down the neck - I'm not a shredder AT ALL, but I do often play high on the neck both for effect, and for chording and phrasing, and a bass that will not intonate properly is a deal breaker. For the record I was easily able to get that Squier dialed in perfectly.

Anyway, bottom line summary, for $1k I would expect the tone (fidelity, highs and lows) to be notched up a level or two.




P.S. FWIW, it seems the current CVs and VMs are already there.

 

[petrus61]

Since this thread is destined for failure anyway, I'm just going to state opinions instead of facts from here on. Before i do that, there are a few indisputable points.

1. American Standards are built from different components than any Squier on the market and incorporate a different finishing process.

2. American Vintage Fenders are also built from different components than any Squier on the market and utilize a different finish and finishing process.

Now that we have the facts out of the way, we can continue misconstruing them, offering subjective analysis and letting our bias cloud what is plain as day: that US Fenders and foreign made Squiers are two completely different builds.

 

[Technotitclan]

I like the concept of this thread but, as usual, it got derailed by people that take things to seriously. This is an internet forum guys, relax.

Anyway my $.02:
*A little more attention paid to fretwork. It intonates great, leveling an edging are just not 100%.

*A little richer tone from the pups. I like the sound they have a lot, just for $1K maybe give me better definition on the low and low mid.

*Hardware. It works with what came on it but tuners and bridge definitely feel bargain. Again, they get the job done, just makes it obvious its not a $1K bass.

 

[lowvoice]

My point in this thread is not to wind anybody up, I'm just trying to ascertain the pros and cons of Squier instruments without taking cost into consideration. The notional $1000 is just to help put their real cost to one side.

As we have already found, the 'cheapness' of a Squier is different in different markets, and in some markets, they are not that cheap at all!

But we also know that they are raved about on this forum.

So the point is, if you were to take away the feeling of getting a bargain, and take away the 'its great for $x' argument, how are they...as...instruments? What do you like, what do you not like?

I am interested because the answer ‘they are great for the price’, does not really tell anything about them, but merely encourages the idea that they are low cost items.

I think most people who have owned and played both could very easily decide what the differences were and whether the price difference is justifiable.

I own a number of guitars that cost me a pretty penny (Fender, Gibson and Martin), recently I went to purchase my first bass guitar, and picked up a Gibson SG bass. I didn’t intend to buy this, I went there for a MIM Fender, but after trying at least 10-12 instruments, I ended up choosing between a Squier Mustang and the Gibson. I was really surprised that a guitar by a brand that I had always dismissed and would not usually have even bothered to try, was better than more high end instruments.

In the end I went for the Gibson, but I’m actually going back to the store this weekend because I may just pick up that mustang too.

My point here is that while this may be true for you, there are many who are new to these brands, and they hear people in guitar shops saying things like ‘yeah the squiers are throw-away guitars, expect to get a new one every 2-3 years’ (I was told this in a reputable shop!), and then how much people like them here, and its difficult to equate one with the other.

So far, without cost being a factor, nobody has said that squires don't last very long. This alone is useful to potential buyers.

I'm not saying they make a Fender any better, but they are physical differences that have an overall effect on the bass, whether looking at it or playing it. The differences cannot be denied because they are much more than simple aesthetics. Love it, hate it or be indifferent about it, the differences are there and very obvious to anyone who has played both.

See my point above. Two weeks ago I would have whole heartedly agreed with you, now I’m not so sure.

Since this thread is destined for failure anyway, I'm just going to state opinions instead of facts from here on. Before i do that, there are a few indisputable points.

1. American Standards are built from different components than any Squier on the market and incorporate a different finishing process.

2. American Vintage Fenders are also built from different components than any Squier on the market and utilize a different finish and finishing process.

Now that we have the facts out of the way, we can continue misconstruing them, offering subjective analysis and letting our bias cloud what is plain as day: that US Fenders and foreign made Squiers are two completely different builds.

This thread is only destined for failure if people take it that way.

There have been some really great contributions so far, and hopefully more to come too.

 

[petrus61]

At the end of the day, there really is no comparison, IMO. You get what you get with both brands. Every bass has to be judged on its own merits. If you find one you like, that's all that matters, but the differences, again, are indisputable. Whether those differences justify a higher or lower price comes down to the buyer.

 

[Immigrant]

It's always going to be about the the quality /cost ratio. You can't take cost out of the evaluation with a bass, just as you wouldn't for car comparisons. Or hamburgers.

If you went into a store (preferably NOT a BigBox because poorly set-up instruments are the norm there) and the price tags were written in a strange, extraterrestrial language you didn't understand, you couldn't feel the difference between a Squier VM Jazz and an American Standard? I sure could.

Im not knocking the VM Jazz. They are sweet for the COST.

And yes, I'll gladly slum away on the dollar menu at Wendy's, but a Five Guys burger would please me more.

 

[lowvoice]

It's always going to be about the the quality /cost ratio. You can't take cost out of the evaluation with a bass, just as you wouldn't for car comparisons. Or hamburgers.

If you went into a store (preferably NOT a BigBox because poorly set-up instruments are the norm there) and the price tags were written in a strange, extraterrestrial language you didn't understand, you couldn't feel the difference between a Squier VM Jazz and an American Standard? I sure could.

Im not knocking the VM Jazz. They are sweet for the COST.

And yes, I'll gladly slum away on the dollar menu at Wendy's, but a Five Guys burger would please me more.

In reality, yes. But the thread is theoretical.

The point is that cost is irrelevant when in a global market. If I in the UK pay twice what someone in the US pays, for the exact same thing, then cost in one swoop has become a non-constant, and therefore a subjective element.

 

[petrus61]

In reality, yes. But the thread is theoretical.

The point is that cost is irrelevant when in a global market. If I in the UK pay twice what someone in the US pays, for the exact same thing, then cost in one swoop has become a non-constant, and therefore a subjective element.

But the items up for comparison (let's say a US Standard vs Squier VM) are two different things, regardless of price. Whether they cost the same or double doesn't change that they are different builds from one another with different specs and components.